§ Sir R. COOPERI desire to raise the question of food supplies, with special reference to that of pig production, and if I may seem in this matter to be a little bit critical, I hope the Minister of Food will believe that I am second to none in this country in my appreciation and admiration of the very excellent manner in which he has served the country in time of war in one of the most difficult problems that has come before us, and it is because I know how keenly he desires to have hopeful criticisms and suggestions that I shall venture to put before him a matter about which I feel very much concerned. In the earlier days of the War circumstances did not compel us to take as early a consideration of the means of food production in this country as we know to-day would have been desirable, but, as time went on, and the question of food supplies of all kinds, together with that of the increasing difficult of shipping, became urgent, very serious attention was then given to it, and I think I shall be saying what is quite correct if I say that of all the considerations for improving our home production of food for the people, and at the same time of cutting down the supplies of imported food from abroad, on account of the shipping difficulties, an increased pig production in this country was one of the most promising and the most fruitful. That was true for two reasons: First, because these animals mature so very much earlier than other animals do; and, secondly, this particular animal supplies what the people were beginning to be short of, namely, fats for consumption. At that time, certain plans were put into opera- 1687 tion by His Majesty's Government, and an official was appointed as Pig Controller to the Board of Agriculture. I happened to be one who was appointed on a Committee to advise the Pig Controller, and, therefore, I feel a personal responsibility in what I am bound to regard as an unhappy failure in the maturing of the plans which were laid down at that time. My right hon. Friend knows, I am sure, that the number of pigs on holdings of one acre and upwards has gone down very considerably during the last twelve months. I believe there is some increase on holdings of less than one acre, but it is true to say, on the one hand, that pig production generally has not increased as it was expected to do, and, on the other hand, it is equally true to say that, under fair conditions, there is a great deal more which we can do at the present in this very important direction.
On account of the responsibility which I have held in this matter, I took the trouble recently to communicate with some fifteen people in this country whom I have reason to regard as being authorities on pig production, and thirteen of them in their replies emphasised, in very strong words in most cases, that the difficulties of to-day lie principally with the problem of feeding-stuffs, which are part of the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Food. Some months ago a definite promise was made to the Pig Controller that a certain quantity of feeding-stuffs would be available to the administrators of the Board of Agriculture for the feeding of live stock, and this was to be apportioned, to the best of the ability of the President of the Board of Agriculture and his officials, between the various grades of cattle in this country, and from that quantity a certain amount was definitely promised to the Pig Controller. That quantity has never been forthcoming, not by a very long way, of the amount that has been promised. I am not in a position to say absolutely that peculiar circumstances of war may not have arisen to upset the calculations of the officials of the Ministry of Food, but I do say that if that is the case there has been some mistake, in so far as that the officials who work under him have not conveyed that information at the earliest possible moment to the Board of Agriculture, and thereby enabled that Department to reframe its 1688 plans for producing the maximum amount of food. In addition to that, there is a much more serious aspect of this matter, which is the principal point that I desire to impress upon my right hon. Friend. At the present moment there is absolute duplication of pig production between the Board of Agriculture on the one hand and the Food Controller on the other. Only this last week there was a meeting held by some of the right hon. Gentleman's officials at the Ministry of Food, at which one of the items on the agenda was to appoint an advisory committee on pig production. Now, I am a member of the Advisory Committee on Pig Production at the Board of Agriculture, and, therefore, these two Departments are absolutely duplicating machinery for the production of pigs. That point, I venture to think, only required to be brought to the notice of my right hon. Friend to lead him without any delay to look into the statement that I have made, and to ascertain what is the reason for his Department creating machinery which obviously must be wrong or, if it is right, it ought to take over the whole problem and let one Department alone administer it. I beg him not to overlook my suggestion, and I am quite sure he will make what inquiries are necessary in connection with it.
There is another serious matter affecting his Department with regard to feeding-stuffs which I ought to have mentioned earlier. In regard to the feeding-stuffs that have been available for the last four weeks for the feeding of pigs in particular, the administration has been so badly carried out that one manufacturer, who had produced 1,200 tons of pig food per week, has in three weeks only received permits for the giving out of 5½ tons. That is to say, 3,600 tons were available, and permits were received for the giving out of 5½ tons only, and he has received from the Department of Food Control strict instructions that if he sends out any feeding-stuffs for pigs without the permits action will be against against him. Now surely I am right in suggesting that there is something very radically wrong in the administration of feeding-stuffs in a case like this, and that is a second point which I am quite sure my right hon. Friend will look into. It is no use offering these criticisms, unless one attempts at the same time to do one's best to give advice as to what should be done by the Government to avoid duplication of 1689 machinery, to get the maximum out of material which we have available in this difficult period, when material is everything for purposes of war as well as for feeding the people. From the information which I gathered from those with whom I communicated, together with the other members of this advisory committee, who sat for two hours yesterday on this particular matter, I want to make this suggestion to my right hon. Friend, that he should very seriously consider whether he ought or ought not himself to agree to recognise that the Board of Agriculture, with its machinery throughout the country, is the only Department that can deal adequately with the production of pigs. It is for his Department, when the pigs are produced, to take charge of them, to allocate them, and to deal with them, and if my suggestion is the right one, it means that the control of feeding-stuffs available for cattle must be handed over to the Board of Agriculture.
We know quite well that no Minister likes voluntarily giving up any section of work he has undertaken, and is responsible for, but I believe there is no Minister in the present Government who has a broader mind and greater determination to do whatever is best for the interest of the country as a whole, quite irrespective or whether it will affect for the moment the Department over which he so excellently presides. I hope, therefore, he will give very careful consideration to this matter, because if he will agree to it, it will be done with very few days' delay. It is a very difficult matter, I believe, for the President of the Board of Agriculture to make representations to the Government on this matter, but it would come so gracefully and nicely from the Minister of Food Control, if he would, after looking into this matter, come to the conclusion, which I believe he will, that in the country's interest it is necessary for the control of feeding-stuffs, after he has done with them in his Department, to be handed over entirely to the Board of Agriculture to administer.
8.0 P.M.
There is another point in connection with food production to which it was not my intention to refer to-night, but which my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) intended to be here to raise this afternoon, and who has been called away from the House. He has asked me to submit it to the best of my ability to my right hon. Friend. It deals with the Sheep Sales Order of 1690 January, 1918, under which machinery was set up for the estimating of the weight of sheep, and upon which the price was to be paid to the farmer. Under Sections 3 and 4, excellent machinery was set up by which prices were estimated by a committee of three, composed of a butcher, a farmer, and an auctioneer. I think I am right in saying that, having regard to the country as a whole, that system has worked admirably. I believe my right hon. Friend will say later, with a good deal of truth, that in some parts of the country there have been complaints, and that it has not worked as well as it should have done, and on that account I understand my right hon. Friend appointed additional inspectors. Probably his intentions were the very best under the circumstances, and if these officials did their work properly, as he would wish them to do, there might be no particular complaint. But in certain parts of the country the very opposite result has taken place, and I think, on the 17th of this month my right hon. Friend's attention was drawn by question to what had been happening at Haywards Heath market, where this committee of three had, as they had done for some months past, estimated the prices at which farmers were to be paid for the sheep they sold, and I believe I am right in saying at Haywards Heath market the work of this committee has generally, given satisfaction to the farmers in the district, as well as to the butchers. But one of the Sub-Commissioners appointed by the right hon. Gentleman to go round and supervise the estimating of these weights, and, where necessary, to take such action as he thought right, to see that the right thing was done, in this particular case had gone round after the committee has done its work satisfactorily to all parties concerned, ascertained what prices they had fixed, and had automatically cut them down by a considerable amount. Of course, if it can be shown by my right hon. Friend that this committee was acting unfairly in the interest of the farmer, he would be perfectly justified in supporting the work of this particular Sub-Commissioner, but there is a very great deal of feeling in that district because in this particular case the Sub-Commissioner happens to be a butcher, and one can only point to the coincidence that a man whose interest is in buying sheep as cheaply as he possibly can 1691 should go round and alter the prices which have been fixed satisfactorily in that district for some months past, and in every case alter them very considerably below those previously fixed by a committee of three. I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more on this matter. My right hon. Friend undoubtedly knows the facts. All I ask him to do is to see that careful and proper consideration is given to the points that have been raised by question, and which were answered by my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. J. Parker) on behalf of the Food Controller. I ask him to look into the representations and to see in this particular case whether there is not injustice being done to the farmers in that particular district.
§ The MINISTER of FOOD (Mr. Clynes)The hon. Baronet has raised two subjects in terms which recall the helpful criticism which the Ministry of Food has received from him since the time of its first establishment. I welcome his intervention and would like to deal very briefly with the two cases which he has brought before the House. As to the first one, which related to pig production, the hon. Baronet will recollect that when the foods available for animals became for the Food Minister a most acute and anxious subject, we had to consider the whole matter in terms of food values, and take, as it were, from animals food fit for human beings. That had its immediate effect upon the pig population, and the hon. Baronet has correctly described the situation which has resulted. I can only say that we are doing our best to overcome the obstacle of the shortage of feeding-stuffs, not merely for pigs, but for the other animals on which we depend, and I have very great hope of the situation improving so as correspondingly to improve the prospects of pig production in this country. As to the last complaint he produced of conflict or overlapping between the two State Departments, I can scarcely admit that, although I will take into very earnest consideration the definite suggestion the hon. Baronet has made, in order to see whether, on this matter as on others, the functions of the Board of Agriculture and the Ministry of Food can be in any sense improved or readjusted, in order to obtain the objects which the hon. Baronet has in view.
There are at present three Committees dealing with pigs. There is the Com- 1692 mittee of the Board of Agriculture, presided over by the hon. Member for East Grinstead. That Committee seeks to popularise the pig industry. It makes demands upon the Feeding-stuffs Department of the Ministry of Food. There is the Committee of the Feeding-stuffs Department of the Ministry of Food, whose duty it is to provide for the pigs a fair allocation of the available feeding-stuffs. There is also the third Committee, under the Livestock Commissioners, which deals with pigs as regards their sale for slaughter, so that the three Committees have different functions and special services in this matter of pig production. There would thus seem to be no ground for conflict or real overlapping, because the feeding-stuffs must come from the Ministry of Food; though, as I say, I shall consider seriously what can be done to effect improvement. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture said in this House the other day, the Board of Agriculture is not a United Kingdom body. It has no power to control manufacturers. We are, and I hope we always shall be, in the closest touch with the three Departments of agriculture, and will further, to the utmost of our power, any suggestions put forward for the improved distribution of concentrated foods. But the trouble is that there is not enough concentrated food to meet the requirements. This trouble, as I have indicated, we are doing our best to remedy. I fully agree that if we can considerably increase the pig population of the country we do much to ease the situation in other quarters. We do much to improve the man-power of the country by allowing it to be devoted to other purposes. For every ton of food we have to carry from abroad into this country means the expenditure of great effort, and the taking away of actual productive labour from other and neighbouring services in which men are now employed.
I will inquire further into the particular instance which has been discussed of the grading of sheep, in view of the further information given in the speech of my hon. Friend. On the general question there is, I think, a quite satisfactory answer to the criticism which has been passed. We arranged a grading system, a system wholly satisfactory to the farmers and to sellers of cattle. There are 725 livestock markets in Great Britain. The grading committees consist of a farmer, a butcher, and the Government agent, who 1693 is usually a livestock auctioneer. If an animal is wrongly graded some loss inevitably ensues. At the outset animals were wrongly graded more often than not. For the months of January and February the grading losses were very considerable, and it became necessary to institute some supervision, to provide some kind of check, to obviate the complaints of wrong grading which in some cases had taken place. It was, therefore, determined to attach to each livestock commission office an experienced person of the cattle-dealer class who would inspect the records in the different markets and intervene whenever intervention was deemed necessary.
Intervention might properly take place even when the whole of the three parties were agreed upon what they themselves had done. The sub-commissioners are Government servants. They are authorised, and required, to intervene whenever grading in their judgment appears to be incorrect. They are empowered to fix the actual grades in case of disagreement. My hon. Friend appears to think that there are too many supervisors, and that that interfered unfairly at Hayward's Heath. On the other hand, my hon. Friend the Member for West St. Pancras last week asked if I would consider the advisability of increasing the number of these supervisors with a view to reducing the losses which had been incurred through inefficient grading of livestock. I can only repeat the answer then given, namely, that these men have done very useful work. They are a safeguard for preventing mistakes. Their supervision tends to produce more perfect grading and judgment on the part of the grading committees. Now, it is proposed in view of the demand, to add to their number. My Department, of course, will continue to do its best to reconcile what are, or seem to be, conflicting interests and claims. The important point is that grading losses have by the steps which we have been recently taking very materially decreased.
I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to make an announcement on a subject not so far touched upon—potatoes. The matter is of sufficient importance, because the Government in the previous year thought it necessary so to stimulate the production of potatoes as actually to guarantee a considerable subsidy to those who would undertake that task. The 1919 crop 1694 is to be taken over by the Food Controller as from 1st November of this year. We have framed a scheme, the main objects of which are to carry out the guarantee given to the grower of potatoes that the Government would purchase this crop at prices not lower than a certain minimum sum. We aim at economising transport by utilising the trade, and those engaged in potato production, as Government agents for the purchase and the sale of potatoes, and to provide consumers all over the country with potatoes at the same price for the same quality, irrespective of the price which may have to be paid to the grower. To that end we have created what may be termed a travelling Commission, to be presided over by a Member of this House as chairman. This hon. Gentleman has been appointed by the Minister of Food and by the Board of Agriculture. He will visit each one of the districts in England and Wales—that is to say, each one of the large areas which are to be visited for this purpose. The prices will be fixed by this Commission of Inquiry, after hearing the whole of the evidence, and the Commission will, it is hoped, begin to sit not later than 3rd September, and should complete its work very early in October. The prices to be fixed by the Commission will depend primarily upon the cost of production, but will not be taken in relation to any price which potatoes may command, say, in a free market, and if we were not living under war conditions. It will not be possible to allow dealers to buy direct from the growers at the price assessed by the Commission, and to base their selling price upon this grower's price. Some financial adjustment must obviously be necessary in order that potatoes may flow evenly from the various producing areas.
We propose to create under this scheme twenty potato zones. That will have the effect of considerably economising transport facilities, labour power, and it will also have the effect of considerable saving. In some eight of the zones there will be sufficient potatoes not only for the populations in those zones but also for considerable export to other zones, so that twelve out of the twenty will require to be sent in to them quantities of potatoes to meet the needs of the population in those particular areas. The Potato Control Committee will include representative dealers and growers, together with a transport officer and an inspector ap- 1695 pointed by the Ministry of Food, and the Chairman of the Committee will be the divisional Food Commissioner or his representative. The Committee will exercise a general control on the loading of potatoes in the area, and will deal with any complaints which may come from any quarter or any disputes between the growers and the dealers.
It is intended to grade the potatoes into two classes, and having seen the particulars on this point from experts I have reached the conclusion that they can be properly graded into Grade 1 and 2 according to quantities quite familiar to those who buy them. The price of Grade 1 potatoes to the consumer will be fixed at 1¾d. per lb., and the other grade at 1d. per lb., so that the net effect of the scheme will be a saving in many directions, and at the same time it will continue that stimulus to the growing of potatoes that has been shown in this country during the last eighteen months. The acreage under potatoes at the present time is about 25 per cent. greater than last year, but the yield per acre will probably not be so large, but I do not anticipate that the total weight of the crop will exceed last year's crop by 10 per cent. That will leave a further margin for safety with regard to that important article of food. We had apparently a large surplus at the beginning of 1917–18 season, but to-day consumption is greater than in pre-war days, and we cleared up the whole of the crop without much difficulty.
I anticipate that we shall be able to stimulate the consumption of potatoes next year to a greater degree than last year, and the whole of the crop will be absorbed without loss. Apart from any question of the manufacture of potato flour and allied products, we shall be able to use larger quantities of potatoes in bread-making, whilst the American troops in this country and in France will also be able to receive larger quantities of potatoes grown in this country. I cannot leave this aspect of the question without repeating the need for continued economy in our food consumption, not because, so to speak, there is not enough to go round if we maintain consumption at the present level, but because economy in consumption is so helpful as a contribution to all the national energy that must be consumed during the War, and because it is 1696 such an immense relief to what is, perhaps, the greatest concern to the Government in regard to the prosecution of the War, and that is ship construction. These things all come back to the term "ships," and the more, therefore, we can economise the more we can facilitate the landing of a larger number of American troops for the purpose of aiding the great cause upon which they are now engaged on the Western Front. To lay stress upon the fact that the limiting factor is shipping, I would point out that 5,000 tons of freight supports 1,000 American soldiers at the front. We can, therefore, bring 1,000 American soldiers for every 5,000 tons of shipping.
I have been asked what hope there is of a Minister of Food being able to reduce the cost of certain articles of food which from one cause or the other are now very high. There are great, and I fear in respect of some articles of food quite insuperable difficulties in regard to lowering the price, and so long as the shipping situation compels us to concentrate our food demand upon the North American continent, where the cost of production is daily increasing, particularly in the United States, I feel that there is not much prospect in regard to the price of bacon and pig products being reduced. Our new plan, together with the Food Controller's representative in America, is to effect more complete co-operation in a manner to enable Mr. Hoover, the American Food Controller, to carry into effect his plans to prevent the present tendency of prices from rising still higher, and to enable him, as I hope, ultimately to effect a reduction in the price of some of these conditions. But, although we are anxious to effect a reduction in the price of articles of food, we must not push that anxiety to the point of depressing production or producing any condition of shortage of food in this country or elsewhere. I am not yet able to give the complete story of the arrangements which at present are in the hands of the Food Controllers of the Allied nations, but those arrangements are far advanced, and, when complete, I think it will be found that we shall have abolished all competition; we shall also have prevented any kind of jealousy, or any rivalry of claim between one Ally and another; and we shall not only do this, but I think we shall steady the price and also improve food production in Allied countries.