§ 17. General McCALMONTasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can now make any statement with regard to the grievances of Irish national school teachers, more especially with reference to the arrears due to paper-promoted teachers, the war bonus for teachers of Grade 1, and the appointment of committees?
§ Mr. SHORTTI would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the question of the hon. Member for East Cork on this subject on the 30th ultimo.
§ Mr. DILLONCannot the right hon. Gentleman now state what the Government 593 propose to do in regard to the two committees that were to be appointed to inquire into the status and emoluments of the national school teachers?
§ Mr. SHORTTThat does not arise out of this question.
§ Sir E. CARSONMay I ask my right hon. Friend when he proposes to deal with the whole of this question? We have had many promises, and this is one of the questions on which both sides in Ireland are absolutely agreed?
§ Mr. SHORTTThere is a later question on which I propose to make a statement.
§ Mr. KILBRIDEMay I ask you, Sir on a point of Order, whether it is for you to decide whether or not if a supplementary question arises out of the answer, and not for a subordinate Minister?
§ General McCALMONTAm I to understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the supplementary question does not arise, and why does he not answer my question instead of giving preference to a later question?
§ Mr. SHORTTI can make a fuller statement on the later question which appears on the Paper.
§ 19. Mr. KINGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received requests from Irish teachers for a war bonus; whether he has inquired whether the salaries paid to national school teachers are sufficient to support their position under the increased cost of living; and what action he proposes to take?
§ Mr. SHORTTThe answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the latter part of the question, I am not yet in a position to make a definite announcement.
§ Sir E. CARSONMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think it is time to look into the salaries which are paid to these teachers, and whether he does not think that the salaries are absolutely inadequate to their maintenance in the position they have to occupy?
§ Mr. SHORTTI am going to announce the terms of the reference on that subject, and it would hardly be right to offer an opinion.
§ 22. Colonel Sir JAMES CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many Irish national teachers, since the outbreak 594 of hostilities, have joined the Colours, distinguishing them into teachers under Protestant management and teachers under Roman Catholic management; and if he will also say how many students and how many ex-students of each of the four training colleges for men in Ireland have entered the Army, Navy, and Aerial Force?
§ Mr. SHORTTThe number of Irish national school teachers who have joined His Majesty's Forces since the outbreak of war and who at the time of enlistment were actually serving in Irish national schools is fifty-nine. Of these, six were teachers in model schools, which are under the direct management of the Commissioners of National Education. Of the remainder, forty were serving in schools under Protestant management, and thirteen in schools under Roman Catholic management. It is estimated that there are also about sixty persons qualified to act as national teachers who have joined the Colours, and who were temporarily out of the Commissioners' service at the time of enlistment. The number of students of the training colleges who have joined the forces is twenty-six. Of these, eighteen were students of Marlborough Street, and eight students of the Church of Ireland College. So far as the Commissioners are aware, no student of either St. Patrick's or De La Salle College has joined the forces. The Commissioners have no information as to the number of ex-students who have enlisted.
§ 24. Sir J. CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if the Commissioners of National Education issued a circular intimating that teachers desirous of enlisting might do so and appoint substitutes, provided the managers of their schools were satisfied with this procedure; if the Commissioners have arranged to protect from dismissal loyal teachers anxious to enlist whose disloyal managers are averse to their doing so; and if a loyal teacher joins the Colours and his managers give him a three months' notice will the Board veto the notice?
§ Mr. SHORTTThe Commissioners of National Education issued a circular, dated December, 1915, setting forth the conditions as prescribed by the Treasury under which national school teachers might join His Majesty's Forces for the period of the War and continue to be recognised in their schools whilst absent on military service. These conditions included the 595 consent of the school manager, and the circular made provision for the appointment of substitutes, when required, in the interests of the school. The Commissioners are not aware of any case of the kind specified in the question, but if they are furnished with particulars of any such case the matter will be investigated.
§ 18. General McCALMONTasked whether the discrepancy between the conditions under which principals of large schools were to receive supplementary salary, as described in the White Paper and as described when the Grant was voted, will be brought before the promised Committee; and, if so, what powers will the Committee have in the matter?
§ 32. Mr. O'DONNELLasked the personnel and terms of reference of the two Irish Education Committees?
§ Mr. SHORTTThe following persons have accepted the invitation to serve on the Committee of Primary Education, and in two other cases I am awaiting replies:
The terms of reference are as follows: To inquire and report as to possible improvements in the position, conditions of service, promotion, and remuneration of the teachers in Irish National Schools, and in the distribution of Grants from public funds for primary education in Ireland, with a view to recommending suitable scales of salaries and pensions for different classes of teachers, having regard to the character and length of training necessary, the special qualifications obtained, the nature of the duties which have to be performed, and other relevant considerations.
- 1. The Right Hon. Lord Killanin (Chairman.
- 2. The Most Rev. Patrick O'Donnell, D.D., Bishop of Raphoe.
- 3. The Right Rev. the Hon. Benjamin John Plunkett, Bishop of Tuam.
- 4. W. A. Goligher, Esq., Litt.D.
- 5. Robert T. Martin, Esq., B.A.
- 6. Miss Margaret Doyle, M.A.
- 7. W. Haslett, Esq.
- 8. William B. Joyce, Esq., B.A.
- 9. Robert Judge, Esq.
- 10. Thomas J. Nunan, Esq.
- 11. William O'Neill, Esq.
- 12. George Ramsay, Esq., J.P.
I am not at present in a position to give the names of the persons appointed, or the terms of reference, to the Committee on Intermediate Education.
§ Mr. DILLONI think the reference is most satisfactory, but I would like to know whether any representatives of the Catholic managers of national schools are placed on the Committee; if not, why not? Is the right hon. Gentleman ready to consider a recommendation of a representative of the Catholic managers and also the Protestant managers?
§ Mr. SHORTTI have not done that. I thought that the Committee was sufficiently large as it is, and that the interests of the managers was sufficiently safeguarded by the Bishop of Raphoe and the Bishop of Tuam; but I have arranged that if the Committee, when they meet, decide that the interests of the managers will be affected, or that of a manager upon the Committee would assist the Committee in its deliberations, representatives of the managers can be appointed.
§ Mr. O'DONNELLCan the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects to be able to announce the personnel and the terms of reference of the Secondary Education Committee? I consider that as equally important.
§ Mr. SHORTTI know the terms of reference, but I cannot give them from memory. I was waiting until we had all the replies from those who have been asked to serve.
§ Sir E. CARSONWhen is the Committee going to deal with the question of bonus and paper promoted teachers? Is the right hon. Gentleman going to make an announcement on that subject before the Recess?
§ Mr. SHORTTThese seem to be subjects which cannot be properly referred to the Committee, but I am only awaiting the decision of another Department to make an announcement.
§ Mr. O'DONNELLWhen does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be able to announce the personnel and the terms of reference of the Secondary Education Committee, and when does he hope the Report will be ready?
§ Mr. SHORTTI cannot promise about the Report; that depends upon the Committee. If I do not get the whole of the answers from those who have been asked to serve on the Committee before the House rises, I will make such statement as I can. I will announce the terms of reference to-morrow if the hon. Gentleman wishes it.
§ Mr. O'DONNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman see that the assistant teachers, whose position is lamentable, are properly represented on this Committee?
General MacCALMONTCan the right hon. Gentleman expedite the work of this Committee and can he say when they will begin work?
§ Mr. SHORTTAs soon as they can be persuaded to come together.
§ 61. Sir J. CRAIGasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much is saved approximately per annum by the Treasury interpretation of what is known as the swing of ten, by which, while an average of from forty to fifty retains an assistant in an Irish national school, it does not suffice to ensure the recognition of her successor; and, in the interests of education, if the Treasury proposes to revert to the former interpretation of the concession?
§ Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury)The annual cost of the interpretation of this rule under which the Grant for an assistant teacher was retained, despite charges of personnel, so long as the average attendance at the school did not fall below forty, was estimated to have reached £26,000 per annum on the 1st April, 1915, and would ultimately have increased to over £30,000 per annum at least. I cannot say the precise amount of the saving resulting from the revised rule, but I see no reason to revert to the former concession which was based on a misunderstanding.