HC Deb 30 April 1918 vol 105 cc1392-5
Mr. ALBION RICHARDSON

(by Private Notice) asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the County of London Appeal Tribunal expressing their regret that the new Regulations issued under the Military Service Acts deprive an applicant of the full right of appeal from the decision of the local tribunals, and deprive him of the right of professional assistance on hearing his application; and whether, in view of the undertaking given by the Government to this House on 15th April that the right of appeal should be preserved to the applicant, and that these Regulations come into force on Thursday next, he is prepared to suspend their operation in this regard until the House of Commons had been given a proper opportunity of discussing them?

The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Hayes Fisher)

My attentions was this morning called to the resolution referred to, passed yesterday by the County of London Appeal Tribunal. I cannot admit that the new Regulation deprives applicants of the full right of appeal from the decision of the local tribunals. I think that that statement as to the interpretation of the Regulation is incorrect. I admit, however, that the right of professional assistance to the applicant has been taken away. I may say that the sole object of that was to expedite the proceedings before the tribunal. I am now given to understand that some Members of the House, specially experienced in the working of Appeal Tribunals, are of opinion that the abolition of the right of professional assistance will really retard and not accelerate the action of the tribunals, and that they desire I should suspend the operation of this Regulation until they have been accorded an opportunity of putting their views before the House. As I understand, this opportunity will be accorded on the Local Government Board Vote next Thursday, I think the best course will be to decide whether or not it is possible to proceed with or modify the Regulation after a full Parliamentary discussion.

Mr. RICHARDSON

Do I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that this Regulation dealing with the right of appeal will not come into operation until after discussion on Thursday?

Mr. FISHER

Oh, yes; I thought I had made it perfectly clear that the Regulations will exist, and will come into operation, on 2nd May. I have no means and no machinery at my disposal now by which I can possibly cancel that particular Regulation which prohibits the obtaining of professional assistance before the tribunal. After all, that will only operate for a very few days. If the House, after full discussion, should come to the conclusion that it is better to continue professional assistance before the tribunals—I shall listen to that Debate with very great eagerness to know what is the view of the House—I shall be able to rescind or vary this particular Regulation in accordance with the opinion of the House.

Mr. RICHARDSON

In regard to the first part of my question, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will give facilities to the House to discuss the interpretation of these Regulations, and to take the opinion of the House as to what I suggest is right or what he suggests?

Mr. FISHER

The House will have the fullest possible opportunity on Thursday, I understand, of discussing all these Regulations, if hon. Members choose to do so. I shall certainly listen very carefully to what the House has to say. I still think my view is correct that the full rights of appeal are embodied in the Regulations. That, however, will be a matter for debate.

Mr. L. JONES

May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the opinion of the House when it is expressed?

Mr. FISHER

My right hon. Friend might allow me to be a judge of what is the opinion of the House. I am most anxious to have that opinion in regard to our Regulations, and will be largely guided by that opinion. But we do not always gather the opinion of the House just by the number of speakers who speak for or against a particular Motion.

Mr. JONES

That is precisely the point.

Mr. PRINGLE

We can take a vote.

Mr. JONES

If, as I understand the right hon. Gentleman, he will not be guided merely by the speeches on Thursday, how, may I ask, are we to gather the opinion of hon. Members on this very important question?

Mr. FISHER

The right hon. Gentleman is a very old Member of the House, and I think he knows how to gather the opinion of the House. I also am a very old Member of the House, and I think I know how to gather the opinion of the House.

Sir H. NIELD

If the right hon. Gentleman is assured either by vote or the speeches in the House on Thursday, that he is wrong, will he bring in an amending Rule to preserve the rights of those persons who may be prejudiced by delay?

Mr. P. A. HARRIS

Will these Regulations prohibit the National Service Department employing lawyers as National Service representatives before the tribunals?

Colonel Sir C. SEELY

It would be obviously very unfair if the right hon. Gentleman came to the conclusion that professional assistance should be allowed—very unfair on the few gentlemen dealt with on Thursday; would he not allow the tribunals to take a holiday on Thursday, so that no cases may be decided on that day, and until the opinion of the House is gathered?

Mr. FISHER

This Debate will be pretty well known by those gentlemen who preside over the tribunals, and they will see what is the intention of the House.

Mr. DUNDAS WHITE

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that hundreds, possibly thousands, of cases stand to be decided on Thursday evening, and will he take steps to postpone the decisions until the opinion of the House has been ascertained?

Mr. PRINGLE

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies—

Mr. FISHER

I think that is a great exaggeration as to the number of cases; I could not possibly take any such action.

Mr. PRINGLE

Arising out of that reply, is it not in the power of the tribunals to adjourn the cases until the decision of the House of Commons is taken?

Mr. FISHER

Yes, it is; and I have not the slightest doubt but that chairmen of tribunals will, as regards professional assistance, be largely guided by what they gather is the opinion of the House of Commons.