HC Deb 18 April 1918 vol 105 cc632-48

Lords Amendment

Insert new Sub-section; (6) Every person to whom a certificate of exemption shall be granted In a tribunal after the thirtieth day of April, 1918, shall, unless the tribunal by which the certificate is granted for any special reason otherwise direct, be liable on being so required in such manner as may be pre scribed by Order in Council to join the Volunteer Force and remain a member of that force for the period during which the certificate remains in force, and shall during that period attend such drills, undergo such training, and undertake such military duties as may be so prescribed.

Sir G. CAVE

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is the Amendment to which I referred as a matter of substance, and it is only right that I should, as clearly as I can, explain its effect to the House. Hon. Members will remember that when this Bill was under consideration in this House it was pointed out by some Members, particularly by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sleaford (Colonel Royds), that the effect of raising the age from forty to fifty would necessarily be seriously to deplete the Volunteer Force, a force which, I believe, is doing good service and is preparing itself to do even better service to the country. I think we should all regret that the effect of raising the age should be to prejudice the numbers who are enrolled in that force. My hon and gallant Friend had put down an Amendment in this House of the nature of the Amendment which has now come down from another place, but owing to the Resolution of the House limiting discussion that Amendment was not moved and could not be dealt with in Debate in this House. Now it conies from another place in this form. The effect of it is this: It does not apply in cases where exemption has already been granted. It applies only to future exemptions granted after the thirtieth of this month. It provides that where the exemption is granted by a tribunal, then, unless the tribunal otherwise directs for some special reason, the exempted man shall be liable to service in the Volunteer Force and to perform duties which are to be prescribed by Order in Council, and which will resemble, no doubt, the duties now performed by the older class of Volunteers. I think the Amendment will give encouragement to the Volunteer Force, who are naturally exceedingly anxious that their numbers shall not suffer, and it will give a lead to the tribunals. If the House looks at it carefully, however, I quite admit it will not have a great legal effect on what is going on, because even to-day a tribunal exempting a man from military service can impose the condition that if he is exempted he shall serve in the Volunteers.

Mr. T. WILSON

This will apply to men up to fifty-one years.

Sir G. CAVE

Yes; but to-day it applies only to men up to the military age of to-day. Tribunals very often do impose that condition to-day, and I know from experience that many of the men who are now training themselves in the Volunteer battalions are there because of the imposition of that condition. Very useful men many of them make. That is done to-day, and if this Amendment is carried the same thing may happen, but with this difference, that whereas to-day the tribunal can impose the condition, under this Amend- ment the condition is imposed by Statute unless the tribunal otherwise directs, so that in either case the discretion is with the tribunal. The real difference is that the presumption will be in favour of Volunteer service, and it will be for the tribunal to find that there is some reason against it. I know that in many instances there are good reasons that make it impossible for a man to serve in the Volunteers, for instance, men engaged in very hard agricultural work who have not an opportunity of attending drills except by a long walk from the place where they work to the locality where the drills take place. Cases of that kind have occurred. It is right that the tribunals should have discretion, but for myself I should be very glad if the House would accept the suggestion made by the other House and adopt the Amendment in this form. As I have pointed out, it does not make very much legal change, but it will prove of great value to the Volunteer Force.

Mr. BILLING

May I ask, in supporting this Amendment, whether it also applies to men from eighteen to forty-one, because it is quite common to-day for men between eighteen and forty-one to obtain exemption without the tribunal making Volunteer service a condition of that exemption. That is quite common. I would also ask into what class these men will go in the Volunteer service. Will it be into what I believe is known as Class B, which will enable them to give fourteen days' notice to be relieved of their obligations to undertake Volunteer service, or will it be left to the tribunals to decide into what class men shall be put before they get exemption?

Sir G. CAVE

This will apply from the ages of eighteen to fifty-one in cases which come before the tribunals after the 30th of this month. As the hon. Gentleman knows, many certificates are limited in time, and this will apply to renewals of such certificates. As regards the second point, the duties will be prescribed by Order in Council. I suppose they will fall under Class C, but I am not quite sure about that.

Mr. PRINGLE

This illustrates the inconvenience of the conditions under which we are carrying on discussion. It is true that we are dealing with a question which was not reached owing to the drastic Resolution of the Government in this House. We are now being asked to give our assent to an Amendment in a still different form which none of the hon.

Members of this House have yet been able to see in print. I think this procedure is highly inconvenient, and practically makes it impossible for any Member of this House to undertake responsibility for what is now being done. I wish to make one remark on the subject. This proposal does not affect the men who are exempted otherwise than by tribunals. In other words, every man employed in a protected occupation or in a Government Department is not liable, and I understand that the only condition on which agreement could be got within the Government on this Amendment was that men in Government offices were to be exempted. We know now how the clean-cut is going' to operate in Government Departments. It is only going to apply to men up to twenty-five years of ago, so that we may therefore assume that there will be a considerable number of men over twenty-five years of age and within the existing military age who cannot by any possibility be brought within this Sub-section.

These men cannot be compelled, as the other men very probably will, to join the Volunteers. I am not one of those who think that this is purely a formal change. At the present time it is perfectly true that many tribunals sent men into the Volunteers as a condition of exemption. Under this Sub-section, however, the burden of proof is shifted, and you are making it the duty of the tribunals to insist upon this condition; in other words, the man will have to show that he is engaged in some specially heavy occupation, or that he is not in a condition of health to take part in the drills and other exercises of the Volunteers before he will be exempted by the tribunals from service in the Volunteers. There is a further point that this power is being put into the hands of other tribunals. If it were simply a matter of the same tribunal exercising this power, I do not think it would be so objectionable. If you had the tribunals, as they were in the past, representatives of the local authorities exercising this function amongst their friends and neighbours, as has been the case during the past two years, then I think even this formal change would not have so much practical effect, but you are making this change at a time when you are turning the tribunals into merely nominated servants of the Government. In these circumstances I think the House ought to hesitate a great deal before it agrees to this Amendment so hastily put forward, and I think very inadequately considered. We are told that the existing system works perfectly well. There are hon. Members here familiar with the working of the Volunteers, and who know the extent to which the tribunals exercise their powers at the present time. I am told that they exercise their discretion fairly, because Parliament has not made it an obligation upon thorn to sift out men for the Volunteers. They have only exercised this power when they thought there was a fair case that the man could reasonably be expected to go into the Volunteers. Now it will be the duty of the man to show why he should not go into the Volunteers, a task which may be much more difficult under this Bill. For these reasons I think it is the duty of the House to disagree with this Amendment.

Mr. L. JONES

I think we really have some ground of complaint against the Government for accepting an Amendment with so much substance without any warning to the House. We have only just parted with this Bill. The Government could have put down all their Amendments and have had this Clause before the House, but they did not think it necessary to change the procedure of the tribunals in asking the men to join the Volunteers. They were in a position to say to the other House that the Bill was fully considered here, and in view of the urgency of getting the Bill, which had been considered by a very full House—many hon. Members knew that this was a Supply Day with no particular business going on—I think it is very unfortunate in a Bill dealing with men up to fifty-one years of age, and a Clause which is not the same as that in any previous Compulsion Act, because the men are more established in their habits and their positions in life, that so much further interference with men who-have not been taken for military service should be made on an Amendment without this House having any real opportunity of considering it.

Nor is it a mere turning about of the procedure. There might not have been much to say against it had it been merely laid down what the presumption was. Now you turn it about and say, "You shall join the Volunteers unless you are specially exempted." I point out the wording of this new Sub-section which is now being moved. I desired to move an-Amendment, but owing to the fact that the Home Secretary has moved to agree with the Lords Amendment it is not open to any hon. Member to amend the Lords Amendment. I think it is a little hard that the Government should have moved an agreement which shuts out the possibility of us moving any Amendment, and although the House may be willing to accept the Amendment in the main, we have no opportunity of modifying the wording, and that is entirely due to the ill-considered action of the Government. I want to know what meaning the Government attach to the words "for any special reason." Those are the words which create in my mind considerable anxiety. It is not only a direction to the tribunals that the general rule is to be to volunteer, but it is practically a direction to them that unless there is something very extraordinary they are not to waive that condition. That does seem to me to be going very much further than merely turning the procedure round. I am not at all sure, when dealing with men of this advanced age and of established position, that the House, if it had time to consider the matter, would be willing to put in words the exact meaning of which we none of us know. Can the Home Secretary tell us what meaning he attaches to the words "for any special reasons"? Will there be anything in the Regulations to make clear what are those special reasons? The tribunals which are going to be nominated by the Government will expect guidance in this matter. Are they going to exempt men on the same conditions as before, or is some particular meaning attached to these words by the Home Secretary and the Movers in the other place? I am exceedingly anxious about the way in which the tribunals in the country will interpret these words, and I hope the Government will do something to make the position quite clear to them. I am exceedingly sorry that our procedure does not allow me to move that those words be left out.

Sir G. CAVE

If that is really the only objection, it would be quite easy for me to withdraw my Motion, and, if the House takes that view, to agree to those words being omitted.

Mr. JONES

That is a relief to me, and and if that were the sense of the House my purpose would be achieved.

Sir DONALD MACLEAN

I was very glad to hear what the Home Secretary has just said, because, while personally seeing no objection to the Lords Amendment on general grounds, I very much, fear that the insertion of the words "for special reasons" may lead to some harsh user of them by some of the tribunals, which perhaps are not so well instructed as to how they can interpret words of that kind as are other more efficient tribunals. I am certain that it would be an improvement if those words were left out.

Mr. SHERWELL

I do not for the moment venture any opinion as to whether the proposed Amendment is a good or a bad one, but there cannot be the slightest doubt in the mind of anyone that the Amendment is really an important one and may have very far-reaching consequences. The Home Secretary rather minimised the force of the Amendment by reminding us that the tribunals now have the power in respect of those who have already been enlisted, but the object of this Bill is to bring in the scheme of military control and discipline a wholly new category of the male adult population. May I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to one very important consideration? My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) pointed out a very vital fact when he indicated a point upon which my right hon. Friend who has just spoken (Mr. Leif Jones) seemed to be a little obscure. His arguments were based upon the existing tribunals, but, as my hon. Friend pointed out, we are to have new tribunals constituted we do not know how, and composed of we do not know whom. I have no doubt that the Government will do their best to see that properly appointed tribunals are established, but those tribunals are an unknown quantity. Their identity is entirely unknown to the-Members of this House.

Let me put to him a case which may be one of real hardship. There are up and down the country a whole multitude of new allotment holders, whose energies and enterprise in that direction have been fostered and stimulated by the Government. Take the area which I have the honour to represent in this House. There is a federation of allotment holders for that area of over 3,000, more than 2,000 of whom are within my own borough. Outside in the adjoining boroughs, in the divisions of the Holmfirth, and the Colne Valley, there are other federations not included in the figures that I have given. These allotment holders have most loyally been devoting the whole of their Saturday's spare time and their evening leisure hours to food production. There is no security under this particular Amendment, unless it be provided in the form of directions to the new tribunals, that the new class, which will certainly include a large proportion of allotment holders, may not be forced by the new tribunals to at once join the Volunteer Force. It is perfectly obvious to anybody who considers the matter that no man can be an effective allotment holder and at the same time a Volunteer. There is, therefore, very great danger to food production in this country if the matter is to be as automatic as the proposed Amendment makes it. Under this Amendment a man automatically becomes a member of the Volunteer Force, unless the new tribunals direct to the contrary. This is a very important consideration, particularly in the Northern parts of this country, and I hope, before the Amendment is allowed to pass, that we may have some explicit assurance from the Government that there will be no disturbance of the enterprise and loyal energy of the allotment holders through ignorance on the part of the new tribunals.

Mr. P. A. HARRIS

This Amendment does not touch what has been the existing custom of the great majority of the tribunals. It merely gives legislative sanction to the course that most of the tribunals have followed. It has been the custom in suitable cases—and I assume that the tribunals, according to the Clause, will only apply this in suitable cases in future—to insert as a condition of exemption that men should join the Volunteers, and it has met with general acceptance. Men have seen that the condition is reasonable, and there has been no trouble in getting them to attend drill. I pointed out, on the introduction of the Bill, that we are getting now very near to the bedrock in our man-power. If we call out a very large number of additional men from industry and trade, it is likely not only to dislocate industry, but also to cause a great deal of personal hardship. I ventured to suggest this then, and I again put it forward now. It is much fairer on business men and workers, especially middle-aged business men and workers, to allow them to remain in their present occupation keeping industry going, and to train in their spare time, being liable for service only when invasion is imminent. The Government, after thinking about it for a very long time, have now come to that conclusion, and have established that principle by Act of Parliament. I believe that it will meet the views of the general body of workers of this country. I should like to see this force, instead of receiving as it did for a long time the cold shoulder, properly developed on the lines of the Territorial Force. The Volunteers should take the place that the Territorial Force held on the outbreak of the War. I see no reason why they should not have Artillery, Royal Army Medical Corps, Transport Corps, and every branch of the Service. There are a few units of Artillery which have proved most effective, a Motor Volunteer Corps, which has received very little encouragement from the Government, but which has become a complete success, and will provide the means of transport for the Volunteers if it is necessary to mobilise them. The same applies to the Medical Volunteer units. For along time I put forward a proposal that these medical units should receive recognition. It is only quite recently that they have received the status—

Mr. SPEAKER

This is hardly the time for a general discussion on the Volunteer Force.

Mr. HARRIS

I quite see that I have been straying a little from the Amendment, but I was trying to impress on the House that the fact of these powers being given by Statute to the tribunals will be an encouragement to the tribunals to send men who are fit, and then you will be able to give the various units the full status that the Volunteers bring with them. My hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) referred to the allotment holders. I quite agree with him that in many cases where men are working long hours, if they have an allotment, it is very difficult for them to join the Volunteers, but we must assume that the tribunals will use discretion, as they have always done. These directions suggest that they should always exempt whenever the applicant shows good grounds for exemption. In fact, this Amendment gives the tribunals special direction to exempt a man if he shows good cause why he should be released, Naturally the Government will not want more than a fixed number of Volunteers, because every man who joins the Volunteers has to toe equipped and provided with a rifle. Therefore, we may assume they will only take the most suitable men who have the time, whose industry will not be interfered with, and who have the physique to stand the strain. I quite admit that tribunals have in some cases sent into the Volunteers men who are not fit to undergo the training. In some cases they are men whose hours and occupation really make it very difficult for them to properly perform the duties of a Volunteer. But this Amendment would be a direction not to one tribunal, or to tribunals in a certain district, but to all tribunals to go into this matter thoroughly and properly, to examine each case upon its merits, and it would make the Volunteer Force not only an integral part of the defence of these shores, but a means of a fair distribution of the burdens of this War between the whole of the population according to their work, occupation, health, and obligations.

Mr. H. SAMUEL

The hon. Members who have spoken have all been of opinion that, on the whole, this Amendment will be a useful addition to the Bill, and I have no doubt that the House will be very glad to accept it. The only point at issue is whether the Amendment is not rather too rigid in its terms by including the words "for any special reason." You may possibly find, as the last speaker has said—he has been one of the moving spirits of the Volunteer movement since its inception—that you have too many Volunteers—too many in a certain district. All that involves cost to the State, and we want to ensure that we shall get our money's worth. There are also the considerations of food production, such as have been mentioned. The words "for any special reason" may be taken by the tribunals to mean some individual reason, a reason affecting the individual man as distinct from a class of men. If 2,000 persons in Huddersfield came forward and say they are allotment holders and ask for exemption on that ground, it might be held that a broad exemption could not be given with the law unlimited, not merely in the spirit, but also in the letter if these words are included. I am disposed to think, in view of what has been said, especially by my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), to whose opinions we are inclined to give great weight in these matters, that it would be better if the Home Secretary were to take the course he said he was willing to take, that is, to withdraw the present Motion and let that Amendment be made to the Lords Amendment.

Mr. BILLING rose—

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member for East Herts has exhausted his right to speak.

Mr. T. WILSON

I am rather sorry the Government have accepted this Amendment. They do not quite see what the far-reaching consequences of it may be. In spite of what has been said by hon. Gentlemen who believe in the tribunals, the tribunals have made very big mistakes in compelling men to join the Volunteer Force. I am speaking now as an old Volunteer. I know what used to be the fatigue of drill, especially after I had to work on the days when parades were held. I know quite a large number of instances where men who are working overtime at arduous work and who are also tilling allotments have been compelled to join the Volunteer Force as a means of obtaining exemption under the Military Service Acts. If the tribunals which are set up or which may be set up are not going to recognise that men engaged in arduous employment and working overtime are not entitled to exemption from attending drill, they are going to create a force in this country which will do more to spread pacifism than any force we have at work now. That question ought to be considered by the Government in deciding to compel people to join the Volunteer Force, which is a contradiction in terms. I ask them even now whether it is not better to drop the Amendment? I am quite certain that in the long run the interests of the nation will be better served if it is dropped rather than if it is persevered in. I know there is a feeling of resentment among a good many men at being compelled to put in two drills a week or ten drills a month, as the case may be. I do not want to give the working-men of the country any reason whatever for a feeling against the Government, and in favour of bringing about a premature peace, but I am certain that if this Amendment is persevered in it will have that effect. I therefore appeal to the Government to reconsider its decision.

Mr. BILLING

On a point of Order. Just now when this Amendment was put, I interjected to ask a question of the Home Secretary. It was my intention to elaborate that question and one or two others I have in my mind, but out of courtesy to the Home Secretary, as he rose while I was still on my feet, I gave way, and that question was answered. I should like your ruling, Sir, on the point whether, in consequence of my giving way to the Home Secretary on the one question I raised, I am to be debarred from making any further contribution to the Debate on what is, in my opinion, one of the most important Amendments that is likely to be made, in this Bill. The further contribution I have to make is quite short, and I ask the Chair's permission to make it

Mr. SPEAKER

That is not my recollection of what occurred. I began by putting the question. The Home Secretary then made a speech, and he was followed by the hon. Member for East Hertfordshire. It is true that he did not make a long speech, but he made a speech, and that debars him from taking a further part in this Debate.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

I was a little surprised at the remarks which fell from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Samuel), which, if I understood him aright, referred to the unanimous chorus of approbation with which this Amendment has been received in this Chamber. I do not think he could have listened to the speech of my hon. Friend and colleague for another division of Lanarkshire, nor to the criticisms addressed to the Government by the right hon. Gentleman sitting opposite him, because those two very weighty speeches in themselves showed how divided even this small House is upon this most important question. This is a point of very-great substance, which has not been examined in many of the bearings which it will have upon the life of the nation. I protest against an Amendment of this substance being taken in a House which, if this were an ordinary sitting would not constitute a quorum, and without the words of this lengthy Amendment being in the hands of Members. It has not even been typewritten, as was done on a former occasion, and we have to trust to our memories. What does the Amendment do? Unless a tribunal makes an Order to the contrary, there is now a statutory liability upon every person who receives a certificate of exemption to join a Volunteer Force. What is the ground for this alteration in the procedure of the tribunals? I listened with very much interest to a weighty intervention earlier by the hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Nield), in which he made certain aspects of the Government proposals clear. But I should like to hear from him, as well as from the Government, the grounds for this alteration in the procedure of the tribunals. We cannot consider this Amendment without remembering what the Government have done in the Bill itself. They have swept away the tribunals as at present constituted and have made them nominated bodies. If the old tribunals had the power of imposing Volunteer service, if they thought fit to do so, surely there is the more reason for leaving that power and not imposing it by Statute, and there is the less reason for any change seeing that tribunals are in future to be nominated… If the House had the Amendment before it it would be seen that it raises questions not only of principle, which is what I am chiefly concerned with, but also very numerous questions of administration. I heard, in the words which were read from the Table, no reference whatever to what happened in districts were there are no Volunteer Force, nor do I think it is clear how the liability is carried out or what steps have to be taken to make local arrangements. Apart from the question of principle, there are all sorts of administrative details which are left wholly unsettled by an Amendment such as this.

But there is another point, which has not been referred to in this Debate, which illustrates the force of my contention that it ought not to be proceeded with to-night in this small House. We are considering this matter without a single representative of the Nationalist party being present.

Mr. PRINGLE

Do you know it is never going to be applied to Ireland?

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

No representative of the majority party in Ireland had any idea that an Amendment of this substance was going to be brought forward in a small House at this hour in the evening without previous notice being given. It has a direct bearing upon Ireland. Ireland is included in the Bill, and if the House now adopts the Amendment it will still further add to the complexities and the difficulties of the position in Ireland.

Mr. PRINGLE

They are all Volunteers in Ireland.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

This is to make them compulsory Volunteers. If it is only because of the absence of the Irish Members, this proposal ought not to be pro- ceeded with. It ought to be considered when we can have the words of the Amendment in print before us, and when we can take the judgment of a far larger House than it is possible to do now. The Home Secretary suggested that if the House agrees he will withdraw the Amendment for the moment in order to omit certain words and move to agree to the Lords Amendment in a slightly different form by leaving out some of the obviously ambiguous words. I shall offer no objection to the withdrawal of the Amendment in order for it to be amended, but I should not like the right hon. Gentleman to think that then we can assent to this proposal even in its amended form.

Mr. ROCH

I have listened to what has been said on the Amendment, but it really does not seem to me, so far as I can gather, for it is not before me, that any really substantial change is made. As far as I understand from the Home Secretary, this very condition can be imposed by the tribunals now, and this is really only putting it in the inverse way. But what I think is of some importance, it seems to give an indication of the possibility of a change of policy on the part of the Government. It may well be that the Government thinks it is desirable to largely increase the force of the Volunteers under this provision. If that is so, for goodness sake say so. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there is a great deal of uncertainty among these older men. They have been told, on the one hand, that only 7 per cent. of them are going to be called up, and now it may be that a substantial obligation is to be imposed on them. If there is going to be a change of administration and it is desired to largely increase the Volunteer Force, let the right hon. Gentleman get up and say so, and let people know where they stand.

Sir H. NIELD

We have listened to a number of speeches, and I think hon. Members have been beating the air. I am inclined to agree with the last speaker. There is not the substance in practice that many people think. With regard to the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, I could have listened far more attentively to what he said if I could recall to mind a single act on his part in furtherance of the War. I cannot for the life of me realize that he has spent five minutes in doing any work—

Mr. PRINGLE

Are you referring to me?

Sir H. NIELD

No. When I think of the number of hours which have been spent in Debate in order to hinder the War by my hon. Friend opposite and those who are associated with him, I cannot help feeling that the time has come when on a minor matter of this sort we cannot listen without impatience to views put forward from that quarter. The hon. Member (Mr. T. Wilson) has spoken very frankly from the point of view of the working man. I cannot believe, though I do not claim to have the same acquaintance with his inner life that my hon. Friend has, though I might have much more than he will give me credit for, that the patriotic working man who feels that the possibility of invasion is a real one would deny himself, hard worked though he may be, the two hours a week or whatever will be necessary to qualify. I am perfectly sure of this, that those I know would readily forego an extra hour or two overtime if it were necessary for them to do this Volunteer work for their country. If the overtime was voluntary work for the sake of putting money into their pockets I give the average workmen credit enough to believe that they would readily forego a couple of hours or so in order to do this for their country. This provision will enable us to get another class of man. Watch the trains that go out of London night after night, especially on the London and Brighton line and the South Eastern line and see the gentlemen who play cards and who cannot even give up the time of the journey to thought or reading, which may be beneficial to their country, but who go backwards and forwards, day after day, without having done a single thing to defend the cause of this country, and who when they are called upon to pay money for taxation, are always grumbling and making a great burden of it. This Clause will get gentlemen of that class. I know a man with an exceedingly bad heart who has taken up volunteering, and although he is close upon fifty he has made himself so competent with the Lewis gun that he has come out at the head of the examination appointed by the War Office for those who make themselves proficient in the use of that machine. That is the type of man we want, and that is the type of man we shall get under a proper provision that enables the tribunal to discrimi- nate. I cannot believe, though some are sneering at the Government for altering the constitution of the tribunals, that any Government would ever so jerrymander the tribunals as merely to get a body which is going to register their views apart from the merits of the case with which they have to deal. I give them credit for being actuated by motives of getting the most efficient work from the men who can most be relied upon, especialy having regard to the experience they have already gathered from the men who have administered these tribunals throughout the country. Whatever may be the circumstances, I do hope the House will accept this Clause when we have left out the words which might, it is feared, operate in the minds of some tribunals in a way not intended. When these words have been taken out we shall have done away with the objection which has been raised, and I do hope that the Committee will then agree to the Lords Amendment.

Major DAVIES

I had an Amendment down in regard to this point. I would like the Under-Secretary for War to tell us what is the policy of the War Office in regard to the Volunteers. Many of us think that the War Office have not given The Volunteer Force the fair treatment which they should have got. Although these men have shown great patriotism, they have not received that consideration to which they were entitled. Therefore, I do ask the Under-Secretary for War to explain what the War Office intend to do and how they intend to develop this force in the future.

9.0 P.M.

Mr. E. HARVEY

I think hon. Members realise that this Amendment does affect many thousands of lives, and, therefore, we ought to consider it carefully. When the Amendment has been withdrawn with a view to its improvement, I hope some statement will be made by the President of the Local Government Board as to the Regulations that will be made instructing tribunals in their interpretation of this new power. We need in particular that there should be some clear guidance given as to the cases mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) of allotment holders, and also the cases of a very large number of workers who are already working excessive hours. I have no sympathy with the class of men mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield), and if we can induce those people to do useful work it is all to the good. But there are many people who will come under this Bill who are now working ten or twelve hours a day, and even more, and who simply cannot undertake the regular obligations of the Volunteer Force. It ought to be made quite clear in the instructions issued to the tribunals that this obligation is not intended in any way to apply to such men nor to such persons as allotment holders, who are already, in addition to their ordinary work, doing an act of very great service to the community—a work which needs to be greatly increased. I have heard from a friend of mine who is an officer of the Volunteers that even under present conditions he has had sent to him by tribunals many men who are very inefficient, and who, possibly on account of the length of time they are working, are not capable of becoming good Volunteers. That position will be immensely increased if this provision is used unwisely, and I think it is of vital importance that instructions should be issued by the Local Government Board, making matters quite clear. I welcome the improvement which the Home Secretary has foreshadowed, while it does not remove my objection to the principle of the Amendment.

Sir G. CAVE

I beg to withdraw the Motion, with a view to the Amendment being moved.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. L. JONES

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the words "for any special reason."

Amendment to the Lords Amendment agreed to.

Mr. BILLING

Speaking in support of that Amendment—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir D. Maclean)

The question has been decided.

Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.