§ The PRIME MINISTERI now come to the question of Ireland. When an emergency has arisen, which makes it necessary to put men of fifty and boys of eighteen into the Army in the fight for liberty and independence—
§ Mr. DEVLINAnd small nationalities.
§ The PRIME MINISTERAnd especially, as my hon. Friend reminds me, to fight for the liberty and independence of small nationalities—
§ The PRIME MINISTER—I am perfectly certain it is not possible to justify any longer the exclusion of Ireland.
§ Mr. DILLONYou will not get any men from Ireland by compulsion—not a man.
§ The PRIME MINISTERAs to Wales, may I just say that before the Act came into operation, Wales showed the highest recruiting record in the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. PRINGLENo.
§ 5.0 P.M.
§ The PRIME MINISTERWhat is the position? I hope hon. Members will allow me to state my case. No Home Rule proposal ever submitted to this House proposed to deprive the Imperial Parliament of the power of dealing with all questions relating to the Army and Navy. These have invariably, in every Home Rule proposal I have ever seen, been purely questions for the Imperial Parliament, so that it is no more a derogation of any national right ever claimed in this House than was the Defence of the Realm Act, which was also extended to Ireland. The character of the quarrel in which we are engaged is just as much Irish as it is English. May I say it is more so—it is more Irish and Scottish and Welsh than it is even English Ireland, through its representatives at the beginning of this War, assented to it—
§ Mr. DEVLINBecause it was a war for small nationalities.
§ The PRIME MINISTERIreland, through its representatives, assented to the War, voted for the War, supported the War. The Irish representatives, and Ireland, through its representatives, without a dissentient voice, committed the Empire to this War. They are fully as responsible for it as any part of the United Kingdom. May I just read the declaration issued by the Irish party on the 17th December, 1914, shortly after the War began?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThis is the declaration of the Irish party:
A test to search men's souls has arisen. The Empire is engaged in the most serious War in history. It is a just War. provoked by the intolerable military despotism of Germany. It is a war for the defence of the sacred rights and liberties of small nations, 1359 and the respect and enlargement of the great principle of nationality. Involved in it is the fate of France, our kindred country, the chief nation of that powerful Celtic race to which we belong; the fate of Belgium, to whom we are attached by the same great ties of race, and by the common desire of a small nation to assert its freedom; and the fate of Poland, whose sufferings and whoso struggles bear so marked a resemblance to our own. It is a war for high ideals of human government and international relations, and Ireland would be false to her history, and to every consideration of honour, good faith and self-interest, did she not willingly bear her share in its burdens and its sacrifices." [Interruption.]
§ Captain REDMOND"Willingly!"
§ The PRIME MINISTERMay I also refer to a speech delivered by the late Mr. Redmond at the Mansion House, Dublin, when my right hon. Friend was addressing a recruiting meeting there:
The heart of Ireland has been profoundly moved by the spectacle of the heroism and the sufferings of Belgium. The other day, in London, I met the Cardinal Archbishop of Mclines-Cardinal Mercier—and I took the liberty of promising him then that Ireland would bring her arms and her strength to avenge Louvain and to uphold the integrity and independence of Belgium—aye, yes, Belgium, Poland, Alsace-Lorraine, France—those are words to conjure with by the Irish people. There never was—this is, I believe the universal sentiment of Ireland—there never was a war in which higher and nobler issues were at stake.….I have heard some people speaking of this War as an English and not an Irish war. That is absolutely and definitely untrue. Ireland's highest national interests are at stake.The fact that America is in this War is the best proof of that. There are more Irishmen in the United States of America than there are in Ireland. They are all subject to Conscription.
§ Captain REDMONDNot by England.
§ The PRIME MINISTERIrishmen in Great Britain and in Canada are subject to Conscription.
§ Mr. DEVLINAre Irishmen in Australia?
§ The PRIME MINISTERMr. Redmond, in addressing this House on the Military Service Bill, 1916, said:
Let me state what is my personal view on this matter of compulsion. I am content to take the phrase used by the Prime Minister in his last speech. I am prepared to say I will stick at nothing, nothing which is necessary, nothing which is calculated to effect the purpose, in order to win this War, and this is the view, I am certain, of the people of Ireland.Then he was opposed to that particular Bill. But he said that with him Conscription was not a question of principle; it was purely a question of the necessity for the raising of men I think my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) took 1360 substantially the same view in a speech which he delivered at the same time:We are now engaged." he said, "in discussing an important political proposal for this country. Like the hon. member for Waterford, I view the thing from the point of view of necessity and expediency in the particular circumstances. I would not hesitate to support. Conscription tomorrow if I thought it was necessary to maintain liberty, and if there was no Conscription, we ran the risk of losing the War.
§ Mr. DILLONThat was conditional on Ireland having the liberty to decide her own fate, and if Irish liberty were at stake I certainly would not hesitate to support Conscription.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI do not want to enter into a controversy as to what my hon. Friend meant, but that is what he conveyed to the House, and if he will take the trouble to read that speech, he will see that that is the case. Mr. Redmond himself, on the Third Heading, in delivering his speech put it on the ground that we were fighting for small nationalities.
§ Mr. DEVLINWe found that that was not true.
§ The PRIME MINISTERMy hon. Friend never challenged the justice of the War. On the contrary, he supported it, he voted for it—
§ Mr. DEVLINWho?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo. He voted for the War, supported supplies, voted for the declaration of war.
§ Mr. DILLONThe hon. Gentleman is going too far. I never challenged the justice of the War. I believed in the justice of the War, and said so. I never voted for supplies, nor did anyone else in this House, for a vote was never taken. I never challenged the justice of the War, and I do not now challenge it. The right hon. Gentleman is going too far when he says that. Most certainly. I did not vote for the War. I hold very strong opinions about the origin of the War.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am satisfied with the statements made by my hon. Friend that he supported the justice of the War. If he believed that it was an unjust War, he would never have voted for it?
§ Mr. DILLONCertainly not.
§ The PRIME MINISTERWell, that's settled May I say, quite respectfully, and after a good deal of reflection and hesitation, because after all one does not want to propose anything to raise controversy 1361 and trouble when Heaven knows we have as much trouble as we can possibly deal with —
§ Mr. FLAVINYou will get more of it.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI would not do it unless I felt, after great reflection, that it is indefensible that you should ask young men of eighteen and a-half years of age, married men of thirty-five and forty with families, and even up to fifty, in England, Scotland, and Wales —that you should compel them to fight for the freedom and independence of a small Catholic nationality in Europe, whilst young men of twenty to twenty-five in Ireland are under no obligation to take up arms for a cause which is just as much theirs as ours. It is not merely illogical, it is unjust.
§ The PRIME MINISTERThere is such a thing as justice for England and Scotland and Wales, and the emergency which Mr. Redmond contemplated —and which I still respectfully suggest my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo also contemplated — that we shall not win the War without taking this measure, has arisen. President Wilson's dramatic decision in the last few days is the best proof.
And there is a special emergency with regard to Ireland. Irish battalions and divisions, according to all testimony, have maintained the high honour and repute of their native land. But those battalions are sadly depleted, and they are now filled, or half filled, with Englishmen. If it were merely England's battle, the young men of Ireland might regard that fact with indifference. But it is not. They are just as much concerned as the young men of England. Therefore, we propose to extend the Military Service Act to Ireland under the same conditions as in Great Britain. As there is no machinery in existence, and no register has yet been completed in Ireland, it may take some weeks before actual enrolment begins.
§ Mr. FLAVINIt will never begin. Ireland will not have it at any price.
§ The PRIME MINISTERBut there must be no delay.
§ Mr. FLAVINYou come across, and try to take them.
§ The PRIME MINISTERAs soon as arrangements are complete, the Government will, by Order in Council, put the: Act into immediate operation —
§ Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIENThat is a declaration of war against Ireland.
§ Mr. FLAVINAnd against Irishmen all over the world.