70 Colonel F. HALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) the estimated cost of the 12½ per cent. advance recently given to skilled engineers by the order of the Minister of Munitions; if steps will be taken to show in a separate item in the accounts presented to Parliament the actual additional cost of such advances and the further cost of the advance if extended to other classes; (2) the Minister of Munitions the additional annual expenditure involved in the recent advance of 12½ per cent. to skilled engineers engaged on munitions work, and what further expenditure would arise if this Order were extended to semi-skilled and unskilled men; (3) the Minister of Labour whether any tendency has been shown among men on munition works employed on piece-work systems to transfer to time rates as the result of the advance of 12½ per cent. given to certain time-workers by the recent Order of the Minister of Munitions; (4) the number of men affected by the recent Order of the Minister of Munitions giving an advance of 12½ per cent. in the engineering trade and the additional numbers who would be affected if it were extended to semiskilled and unskilled men engaged on munition works; and whether the advance which has already been granted by the new 2012 Order of the Minister of Munitions was made after consultation with or on the advice of the Ministry of Labour?
§ The MINISTER of MUNITIONS (Mr. Churchill)I will answer the various questions on this subject together.
Colonel F. HALLBefore the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether it would not be in the best interests that separate questions put to separate Ministers should be answered by the different Ministers?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI hope my hon. and gallant Friend, who has courteously postponed these questions until to-day will permit me to take what I think is the convenient course of giving a comprehensive answer to all these questions.
The decision to abolish the leaving certificate made it necessary to readjust the wages of skilled time-workers in munition factories, who otherwise would have been led to move in large numbers to the more highly paid though in many cases less skilled forms of repetition piece work, with consequent wholesale disorganisation of munitions work. This was fully explained to the House before the Autumn Recess. At the beginning of the recess a Committee was appointed, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Durham City, to report upon the extent and method of the increase of time-workers' wages. All the Government Departments concerned were represented on this Committee, including the Ministry of Labour and the Admiralty, as well as representatives of the employers' advisory committee and of the trade unions' advisory committee. The question was brought before the War Cabinet early in October, prior to the date fixed for the abolition of the leaving certificate. In the result the War Cabinet decided to grant the 12½ per cent. advance on a wide basis to skilled time-workers, and the Ministry of Munitions accordingly issued the Order of 13th October. It was always intended by the War Cabinet. that a similar Order should be made in regard to the shipyards, and the original estimates of cost submitted to the Cabinet by the Ministry of Munitions covered both the skilled engineers and moulders and skilled shipyard workers. This decision covers approximately 300,000 men, and the conse- 2013 quent increase in the cost of production which falls indirectly upon the State was estimated at £6,500,000.
§ Mr. BILLINGA year?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLA year of war. It was always foreseen that this settlement of what was known as the " skilled man's grievance " would undoubtedly lead to requests from the semi-skilled and unskilled time-workers who, under the restrictions prevailing when the leaving certificate was in force in the munitions works, had been prevented from obtaining the more lucrative forms of piece-work, and whose wages through the artificial conditions of the War had fallen below the pre-war ratio between time and piece rates. In consequence, after further full consideration by War Cabinet Conferences, attended not only by all the Government Departments concerned but by representatives of the employers, the War Cabinet decided to extend the 12½ per cent. advance to all time-workers on engineering work, on munitions, and in the shipyards. This further advance covers an additional 600,000 men, and adds an additional £7,500,000 to the annual cost of production. In the aggregate the two decisions of the War Cabinet therefore affect approximately 900,000 men at an ultimate cost of about £14,000,000. This is necessarily a preliminary estimate, and the actual application of the advance will require to be considered in detail.
In reply to the latter part of Question 70, it would not be possible to show in a separate item in the accounts presented to Parliament the additional expense, as the Government does not bear the cost directly. In reply to Question 149, there is at present no general tendency for men to leave piece-work for time-work as a result of this advance.
It remains to be seen whether these very substantial advances, involving serious cost to the State, will be accepted in the spirit in which they have been made by the Government, namely, that of loyal and earnest co-operation for the vital objects of the War. The House in considering these matters should realise fully that not only is output of munitions steadily increasing in volume and in quality, but that the efficiency both of the labour and the machinery employed on munitions has for some time been showing similar progressive improvement.
Colonel HALLMay I ask whether, owing to this increase, there has been any increase in the output of work, whether the Minister of Labour agreed to this proposition, and whether the Employers' Federation were represented at the meeting at which this advance was agreed upon?
§ Mr. REDDY:Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, could he state, for the information of the House, what is the difference between the salary of one of these skilled engineers and that of some of the colonels in this House?
§ Mr. CHURCHILL:I have given a very good account of all the process of discussion by which these decisions were arrived at, and the hon and gallant Gentleman may rest assured that all the parties concerned had full opportunity of expressing their views before any of the decisions were taken. There has not been time to see the effect of this upon output, but I have mentioned, and I think it is a very relevant point, that the efficiency per man or per woman of those employed on munitions work, measured by output, is undergoing a process of increase, and that the increasing of the wages must be regarded in the light of that very important fact.
§ Mr. PRINGLECan the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is not a fact that the differential treatment of time-workers as compared with piece-workers, as the result of the system previously prevailing, has been a continuous source of discontent, sometimes leading to strikes, and that the changes introduced by the right hon. Gentleman are likely to put an end to all that discontent?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLYes, those were the powerful causes which have induced separate and successive authorities who have considered this matter to take the serious action that we have taken.
§ Mr. BILLINGDoes the right hon. Gentleman propose to meet the aircraft workers in the same way?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThat is an entirely different strike, I understand. It is not about wages at all, but is on different aspects of labour questions altogether.
Colonel HALLIs the House to understand that £14,500,000 or thereabouts will cover the whole cost of these, increased wages?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI dealt very fully with all these matters in my answer, which I weighed very carefully, and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will study it.
§ Mr. HOUSTONCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether these increases have had anything to do with the present unrest among railway men and their demand for higher wages?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNo, Sir, I am certain that they have had nothing to do with that matter. There have been various wages movements which have acted and reacted upon each other, but these increases are of much too recent a date to have operated in regard to the request put forward by the railwaymen now and some weeks earlier.
§ 79. Sir TUDOR WALTERSasked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that in many of the controlled firms in the Sheffield area numbers of workpeople employed at weekly wages have not participated in the increases of wages granted during the War to certain sections of the workers; and whether he will take steps to have this hardship removed?
§ Mr. KELLAWAY (Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions)If my hon. Friend will furnish me with particulars specifying the establishments and the classes of workpeople referred to, I will have inquiries made.