HC Deb 27 November 1917 vol 99 cc1811-6
15. Mr. HOUSTON

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the Shipping Controller is aware that in spite of protests from the owners, the steamship "Hortensius" was ordered to carry a full cargo of maize from the Argentine to France or the United Kingdom (orders for port of discharge to be given at an intermediate port); whether he is aware that this is a three-decked vessel, giving about 67 cubic feet measurement grain space to the ton deadweight, while maize only occupies about 50 cubic feet to the ton weight. and that this steamer left the River Plate with over 2,000 tons of empty space in her which, had she been utilised for carrying a proper proportion of general cargo, such as wool, hides, fats, oats, etc., as well as heavy grain, would have been filled; whether he is aware that other steamers of less measurement capacity loaded general cargo; and whether he will take steps to ensure greater care being exercised in distributing the heavy grain between all ships sailing about the same time so that they shall be full and down to their marks, and waste of tonnage thus avoided?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of SHIPPING (Sir Leo Chiozza Money)

The vessel in question loaded a full cargo of maize because there was a shortage of tonnage for grain in the Plate at the time and the shipment of general cargo could better be deferred. As the hon. Member is well aware, there is an excess of deadweight cargo to be lifted from all quarters, including the River Plate, and it is consequently often impossible to load vessels in such a way as to make full use of their measurement capacity. The various liner conferences have general instructions as to the nature and quantities of the essential cargoes to be carried, and, apart from special cases such as this, the local liner committees on which all the lines trading to the port are represented, have full discretion to combine cargo with a view to making the best stowage which circumstances permit.

Mr. HOUSTON

Would it not be better to leave the apportionment of the cargo and the loading of the vessel in the hands of the ship-owners' committee who own these ships, rather than to the arbitrary instructions of the Ministry on matters on which it is ill-informed?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

That is the procedure which is normally adopted.

Mr. HOUSTON

It is not.

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

In this particular case there were special reasons for bringing grain away from the River Plate.

Mr. HOUSTON

There were not any special reasons.

Colonel Sir C. WARNER

Will those special cases be made as few as possible, and can he say who were the owners who made this protest?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

For my part, I think it is difficult to reply to questions of this technical character in the House of Commons and to make all the points clear to those not familiar with the trade.

Mr. HOUSTON

Can you not tell him that I was the owner of the ship?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

The answer to the latter part of the question is in the affirmative.

Colonel F. HALL

Is it not a fact that there was a tremendous lot of goods being shipped from the River Plate and was it not possible to load a full cargo—

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

That refers to the next question.

16. Mr. HOUSTON

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller if he is aware that the steamer "Cardiff Hall" was ordered to load at the Falkland Islands, loaded part cargo there, and then proceeded to Buenos Ayres to complete her loading; that on arrival at the River Plate she was then ordered back to the Falkland Islands to take further cargo, and after doing so then returned to the River Plate to complete loading for home; whether he is aware that this entailed extra steaming of over 2,000 nautical miles, considerable expenditure of bunker coal, and heavy expenses; and whether he can say who was responsible for this wasteful use of tonnage and waste of money?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

This vessel, during the period mentioned by the hon. Member, was on special service in the South Atlantic, and was not making a commercial voyage. I must ask, therefore, to be excused from describing her movements in detail, but I am quite prepared to explain the matter privately to the hon. Member. Advantage was taken of her first visit to the Falkland Islands to load certain products of the island, and she returned to load the balance under instructions issued locally. She completed in the Plate on her way home. The arrangements made enabled the Shipping Controller to cancel the call of another steamer which had been scheduled For leading at the Falkland Islands.

Mr. HOUSTON

Will the individual who was responsible for giving those absurd and wasteful orders be promoted?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

My hon. Friend knows that the vessel in question was a fleet collier, whose movements were largely directed by other considerations than those of trade.

17. Mr. HOUSTON

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether, in view of the instructions from the Shipping Controller to owners of liners in the River Plate trade to increase their outward rates of freight by 50 per cent., and that homeward commercial freights from the River Plate range from 150s. to 400s. per ton weight, and that the Shipping Controller has stated that these increases are necessary to cover increased working expenses and war risk insurance, he can explain why freights on Government cargo, such as preserved meats and cereals, are still held down to 50s. per ton and 52s. 6d. per ton, respectively; and whether he will explain why preserved meats should be carried for the Government at 50s. per ton while preserved meats carried for civilian consumption should be charged 200s. per ton?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

With regard to the first part of the question, the rates of freight on Government cargo, such as preserved meats and cereals, from the River Plate have been and are under consideration, with a view to such modification as is necessary to meet increased running costs. It is hoped that the revised rates will come into operation at an early date. As regards the second part of the question, the rate of freight on commercial shipments of preserved meats for civilian consumption are necessarily left to be determined by the competition of the market, subject to the rules in force as to priority cargo.

Mr. HOUSTON

Is it not the fact that this method has been adopted of taxing the civilian portion of the population for the purpose of keeping down the expense of the War Office; and is that a fair and proper way of dealing with this matter?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

No, Sir! As I have before explained, the Shipping Con- troller is not taxing the civilian population. If, for example, preserved meat was carried by Government at Blue Book rates there would be no advantage to the British consumer, and the saving on freights would be pocketed by the importer.

Mr. HOGGE

Are we who are not shipowners to understand that some stuff can be carried at 50s. a ton in one ship and that 200s. per ton is required in another ship?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

As to the 50s., the rate is under revision, owing to the great increase of costs.

Mr. HOGGE

Does that mean that the 200s. is coming down to 50s.?

Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY

No; I do not mean that, but that the smaller figure will have to be advanced.

18. Mr. HOUSTON

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether, under the direction of the Ministry of Shipping, a premium of £9 per cent. is charged for war-risk insurance for ninety-one days on vessels engaged in oversea trades; whether he is aware that this is equivalent to about £36 per cent. per annum; whether insurance premiums are based on losses; whether the losses of merchant ships are estimated to equal 36 per cent. of the total of those employed in overseas trade; and, if not, is it the object of the Government to make profits out of underwriting?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Wardle)

The Board of Trade is responsible for the scheme of war-risk insurance. When the insurance scheme was revised, in August, the rate for requisitioned liners was fixed at 9 per cent. for ninety-one days, and under the circumstances this was a reasonable rate to charge. Further experience has shown that this rate can be reduced, and it is being reduced to 7 per cent. The object aimed at in fixing rates is to make the premiums cover the losses, without either loss or profit.

Mr. HOUSTON

Is it not the fact that this reduction to £7 has been made since my question was handed in at the Table?

Mr. WARDLE

It has been under consideration for a long time.

Mr. HOGGE

If the hon. Gentleman puts down another question will it be further reduced?

Colonel HALL

May I ask whether the premiums cover the losses?

Mr. WARDLE

No.

Mr. HOUSTON

Is the present rate of £7 based on losses which represents 28 per cent. of the full number of ships employed?

Mr. WARDLE

I would ask the hon. Member to give notice of that question.

Mr. WATT

Are we to understand that they are reducing the rate although they have undergone a loss?

Mr. WARDLE

Not a loss on this particular consignment, but a general loss.