§ (1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty to raise and maintain an Air Force Reserve and an Auxiliary Air Force consisting in each case of such number of officers, warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men as may from time to time be provided by Parliament, and to provide for the. transfer or attachment to the Auxiliary Air Force, subject to their consent, of officers and men of any unit of the Territorial Force which at the passing of this Act forms part of the Royal Flying Corps.
§ (2) His Majesty may, by Order in Council, apply with the necessary adaptations to the Air Force Reserve, or to the Auxiliary Air Force, or to the officers or men of any such force, any enactment relating to the Army Reserve or to the Territorial Force or to the officers or men of those forces, and such Order in Council shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.
§ Mr. BILLINGI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "of" ["officers and men of any unit"], to insert the words "the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve or of."
Why should any differentiation be made between a Territorial officer before the War and a Royal Naval Volunteer officer before the War? This Bill proposes to graciously recognise the services of men who enlisted prior to the War and who were trained prior to the War for the defence of this country. It proposes to give them certain advantages if they transfer to the Air Service. I contend that that should apply equally to Naval Volunteers as to Volunteers in the Army. I am quite willing to forego any arguments in support of the Amendment if the hon. Gentleman would intimate that he is prepared to consider it favourably. If he is, there is nothing more to be said; but if there is no intimation to that effect, I must press the case of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve on the House. Perhaps I may mention, as it is possible that you, Sir, may rule them out as having been embodied in this Amendment, that I have put down two other Amendments, one in the next line to insert the words "the Royal Naval Air Service or of," and in the last line of the Sub-section to add the words "as the case may be." It would be necessary to put both those Amendments in if the one I am now moving were carried. I propose to save the time of the House by 780 treating them together. Wily should the Royal Flying Corps have advantages, which are not extended to the Royal Naval Air Service? Why should Army Volunteers be given advantages under this Bill which are not extended to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve? The position is one that is likely to create an impossible state of affairs in practice. A man of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, having joined, the Royal Flying Corps, would not be eligible for the advantages under this Clause, while his friends who might have been Territorial officers before the War and who joined the Royal Flying Corps would be eligible. A Territorial officer who joined the Royal Naval Air Service would be eligible for the advantages under the Clause, yet a Royal Naval Volunteer who joined the Service would not.
When I have the attention of the Government, I would ask the very simple question whether or not they have any particular reason for making this distinction between the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service, and for making the distinction between the Territorial Force and the Royal Naval Volunteer. Reserve? Surely this Bill has to be catholic and comprehensive. If we suggest that it is vulnerable and vague it is for the Government to amend it. Here is, an opportunity for making it less vulnerable and more catholic. I fail to see what possible objection there can be to this proposal. If in moving these Amendments I seem to deal with them fully, the only reason is that there seems to be such a lack of any desire to do justice to the Service on the part of Members of this House, and that if I do not carry every point it is not even mentioned. Surely there must be some hon. Member in this House who is interested in the well-being of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. and the Royal Naval Air Service. I have never known Members so reticent with so much opportunity to speak in my life. Certainly, it is not an encouraging audience, but that should not affect it. It is a duty for us to press this matter. It is not a pleasure—far from it. I trust hon. Members will support this in so far as it is an endeavour to obtain justice and equality of treatment for members of His Majesty's Forces, irrespective of what they joined before the War and what they are in now. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macpherson) will tell us why this distinction has been made in favour of the corps under his control, the Royal Flying 781 Corps, and if there were a representative of the Navy here we might get a reason why they are let. down, but I trust there will be some statement from the Front Bench, no matter how trivial or short.
§ Mr. HARCOURTI beg to second the Amendment.
I feel bound to respond to the hon. Member's appeal, at any rate to the extent of seconding his Amendment, because I have myself been an officer of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve for close on three years. I do not know that I agree with all his arguments, and I am not fully convinced that the Amendment is essential; but we are entitled to some clear explanation from the Government in the matter, if only because I believe there is a substantial number of capable officers and men in the corps whom we should desire to get, who are anxious to transfer, and who are not certain of their position under the Admiralty at present. Royal Naval Volunteer Reservists have been attached to the Royal Naval Air Service in considerable numbers, and recently they have been given commissions in the Royal Navy. I should be very much obliged if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would give some definite assurance to the people who are concerned either that he is prepared to accept the Amendment or that it is not really required, because the Bill is already watertight.
§ Commander BELLAIRSI rise in order to invite the Government to make a statement on this subject. I believe they undertook to make a change in the House of Lords, but that was when they contemplated taking the Report stage on the same day as the Committee stage. I regard this somewhat as a test case. All through this Debate, and all through the Committee stage, we have had the impression that the Front Bench are not free agents in this matter, and that there has been some sort of compromise with the War Office and the Admiralty, and they have to go hat in hand to the War Office or the Admiralty to get what they want. In this case, apparently, the War Office has conceded a great deal more than the Admiralty. I hope that in the interval which has occurred since the last Debate my hon. and gallant Friend has been able to get something out of the Admiralty.
§ Major BAIRDWe are quite innocent in regard to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I endeavoured to make that clear 782 to the hon. Member (Mr. Billing) in the Committee stage. I pointed out to him then, and I repeat it now, that this Clause refers to a unit of the Territorial Force. There is no unit of the Royal Naval Volunteers serving in the Air Service.
§ Mr. BILLINGThere may be many individuals serving.
§ Major BAIRDThe hon. Member seeks to move an Amendment to include a unit, and then he wants to shift it on to individual members. Individual members are included under Clause 3, which says, "any officer, warrant officer, petty officer, non-commissioned officer, or man of any of His Majesty's Naval or Military forces may." That completely covers the ground of individuals, without any question. May I appeal to the hon. Member, who asserted at the start, when the Bill was introduced, that he desired to see it on the Statute Book, imperfect though he considered it. If there is one way more than another to secure that a Bill shall not get on to the Statute Book it is to make a long speech on a point which has been completely disposed of in Committee stage and to bring it up again on Report stage.
§ Mr. BILLINGWill the hon. and gallant Gentleman point out what is the relevance between Clause 6 and Clause 3? Clause 6 refers, so far as I can read it, purely and simply to the Auxiliary Air Force, and as such it gives certain privileges to Territorial officers. If he will point out why I am so stupid in the matter, it will equally apply to the Under-Secretary for War, who is going to help me out in the House of Lords with it.
§ Major BAIRDIt is perfectly clear. In time of war there is no question of a reserve or an auxiliary force. In time of peace there will be. There is at present in Hampshire a unit of the Territorial force which is now a part of the forces in the sense of being a reserve. Officers and men of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve are engaged in the War.
§ Mr. BILLINGNot at all. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve were engaged long before this War was thought of.
§ Major BAIRDBut their period of service now is for the War. If they transfer it is certain it is for the War. If they transfer to the Air Force anyone who thinks we do not want to have them must be very slightly acquainted with the situation. Of course we want these men.
§ Mr. BILLINGWhy do you not say so?
§ Major BAIRDWe do in Clause 3, which makes it perfectly clear that we get these men. This Clause is designed to deal with a unit of the Territorial Force and include it in the Reserve. There is only one unit of the kind existing to-day. The rest of the Auxiliary Force will obviously have to be created when the War stops. It does not affect the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in any shape or form. They are not included.
§ Mr. PRINGLEI think the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not bear so hardly on the hon. Member (Mr. Billing), because he does not happen to share with him the gift of brevity. This discussion need not have arisen at all if on the Committee stage the Government spokesmen had understood their Bill.
§ Major BAIRDI have repeated exactly what I said in Committee.
§ Mr. PRINGLEMy recollection of what occurred in Committee is that this was a matter which was to be considered before the Bill was to be dealt with in another place. It was because of that that my hon. Friend put down his Amendment, and it was also on that account that the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Mr. Harcourt) stated that the matter required elucidation. If this point had been made clear this discussion would have been unnecessary.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member (Mr. Billing) as to carrying His Majesty's mails is either not necessary or has already been disposed of by the decision of the House on the question of service.
§ Mr. BILLINGOn a point of Order. The question of carrying mails was purely and simply introduced by me as an illustration of the necessity of changing the name. There may have been hon. Members who may not have wished to change the name in the title of the Bill but who would have been in favour of supporting an Amendment providing some work of utility in time of peace. Therefore, I ask whether I cannot be allowed to move this Amendment because there has been some passing reference made in an earlier Amendment. I trust you will allow me to 784 move the Amendment, as I consider it, and other hon. Members also consider it, of considerable importance.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have already said that this Amendment is either not necessary or it has already been provided for. I do not think it is necessary. There is nothing in this Bill which is to prevent the Air Force from carrying mails.
§ Mr. BILLINGPerhaps you would be good enough to allow this question to be confirmed by the Government. In this Bill will the Air Service have power to enter into contracts to carry mails throughout the world and to give officers and pilots instructions to fly their machines as well as to carry mails?
§ Commander BELLAIRSMay I suggest that it is perfectly possible for the Air Force to carry mails under this Bill. The Navy carry mails and the War Office maybe called upon to protect trains or run trains with mails or to do anything of that kind.
§ Mr. BILLINGThis is not a question of carrying mails in war time. This is a question of a mail service in peace time, which is a different proposition altogether to the carrying of mails in war time.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere is nothing to prevent His Majesty's ship's carrying mails in peace time, and the same applies in this case.
With respect to the next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member, providing that the President of the Air Council shall also be appointed a member of His Majesty's War Cabinet, I would point out that the War Cabinet is not a statutory body, and you cannot have a statute to put someone on the War Cabinet.