HC Deb 13 November 1917 vol 99 cc272-85

(1) Every scheme for the constitution of a local committee under Section two of the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, 1915, shall provide for the inclusion among the members of the committee of at least one representative of disabled men who have been discharged from the naval and military service of His Majesty.

(2) Where such a scheme, framed before the passing of this Act, does not provide as aforesaid, the council by which the scheme was framed shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act and subject to the approval of the Minister of Pensions, frame a supplemental scheme revising the existing scheme so as to give effect to the provisions of this Section, and if within such time, not being less than one month, as the Minister may allow the council does not frame such a supplemental scheme, or such a supplemental scheme as the Minister approves, the Minister may himself frame a supplemental scheme, which shall have the like effect as if it had been framed by the council and approved by the Minister.

The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Hodge)

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "for" ["Every scheme for"], and to insert instead thereof the word "regulating."

This first Amendment standing in my name is purely a drafting Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HODGE

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "local" ["local committee"], to insert the words "or district."

We have had extreme difficulty in getting numbers of our localities to appoint disabled soldiers on the committees. The Bill as originally drafted, in my opinion, did not go far enough; hence the Amendment which I am moving. The other Amendments have been framed with a similar purpose in view, that we should have disabled men on every class of committee. I think that with that explanation it will be quite unnecessary that I should say anything else on any of the other Amendments, as I imagine hon. Members agree that the Amendments are designed from that point of view. I hope, therefore, that the Bill will have a speedy passage through Committee.

6.0 P.M.

Sir HENRY HARRIS

I entirely support the view as to the inadequate representation of disabled soldiers on the local committees and sub-committees, but I think my right hon. Friend should point out that the local committees have been in a difficulty in this matter. Their numbers are strictly fixed in the scheme. They appointed councillors and have not been able to appoint representatives of disabled soldiers because their own committees were full. In framing the new scheme it would, I suggest, be rather useful if it gave the local committees power to appoint the representatives desired. At present they are entirely in the hands of the local council. But I want to make it quite clear that local committees, if I may venture to speak for them as chairman of one, will welcome the presence of disabled soldiers.

Mr. HARDY

I should also like to raise-this one word of protest against it being, considered that the local committees were adverse to the introduction of disabled men. On the contrary, the committee with which I have been connected in Kent were extremely anxious to add them, and they have bombarded the Department with letters asking them how they propose that such men should be selected, and whether they were restricted by the limitation which has just been alluded to by the hon. Gentleman opposite, namely, that we had filled up all the vacancies in our scheme, and it was impossible for us, unless power were taken by the Department, to give us some margin, to add a member at that moment. Having had other work thrust upon me, I have resigned my position on the War Pensions Committee in order to enable a disabled soldier to go upon it. Therefore, I can say we certainly were desirous of taking advantage of the suggestion. I do not think it is quite fair to lay the whole blame on the local committees. The addition of the words "or district" no doubt is quite desirable, but I presume the Government, merely as a technical matter, intend to alter the name of the Bill, because it is confined at present to local committees, and, therefore, this is going outside the title so far as I can see.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (1), after the word "Pensions" ["Naval and Military War Pensions Act, 1915"], insert "etc."

After the word "the" ["members of the committee"], insert the words "local or district."—[Mr. Hodge.]

Mr. HOGGE

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "at least one representative of," and to insert instead thereof the words "two or more." When we were on the Second Reading, I raised this point, as to whether the representation on the committee should be limited to one disabled man or not, and I quite acknowledge the fact that the Minister of Pensions has met the view expressed by myself and others in the Debate in putting down an Amendment, which follows mine on the Order Paper, to leave out the words "one representative of" and to insert "two." The reason I prefer my words is this; if you accept the words proposed by the Minister of Pensions the temptation to a committee would be to remain satisfied with putting on two men.

Mr. HODGE

At least two men.

Mr. HOGGE

If you put in the Bill "at least two," the committee which puts on two is much more likely to remain content with those two, insofar as it meets the provision in the Bill; but if you insert my words, you put the suggestion in the minds of the committee that it is advisable to put on more than two. I think it could be easily argued that you should have more disabled men than two on those committees, bearing in mind that the average local committee consists of quite twenty or twenty-one persons, and if there were only two disabled men on those committees there would be, after all, still eighteen or nineteen who need not be disabled men. As the greater part of the work involves the life and future of the disabled men, and as the disabled men when they return from the Colours revert to their own civilian occupation, it is clear that there is a case for more of those men to be put on the committee, and if you accept my words you will have in the Bill a suggestion to the committee that they need not stop at two, and may be encouraged to appoint more, whereas if you accept my right hon. Friend's words the temptation will be to be satisfied with two.

Mr. HODGE

With all due deference to my hon. Friend, I prefer my own Amendment, and it must always be borne in mind that when the scheme comes before the Minister it is for him to approve or disapprove. It is plain to my mind that, whereas in large committees two men would be altogether too small a number, in small committees if more than two were elected they would probably disturb the balance of the committee. I hope, therefore, my hon. Friend will accept my wording, in view of the fact that I have endeavoured to meet every reasonable objection, not only of himself but other Members of the House, to make the Bill as far-reaching and comprehensive as possible. I, therefore, appeal to him to permit my wording to go through.

Mr. HOGGE

If my right hon. Friend prefers his own wording, I will withdraw mine, but I venture to submit that the reason he has given, that every scheme must be approved by the Minister of Pensions, does not add any virtue to the words he has chosen, because the Minister of Pensions changes practically with the seasons, and there is no continuity of decision in the schemes brought before him. However, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "one representative of," and insert instead thereof the word "two."—[Mr. Hodge.]

The following Amendments stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. PENNEFATHER

In Sub section (1), leave out the words "representative or"; leave out the word "men" ["of disabled men"], and insert instead thereof the word "man"; leave out the word "have" ["who have been discharged"], and insert instead thereof the word "has."

Mr. PENNEFATHER

The Pensions Minister has not only accepted all my Amendments, but has, if I may say so, gone one better, and has carried out exactly what I wished, and almost more than I dared hoped for. That being so, I do not propose to move my Amendment.

Mr. HODGE

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the word "and" ["discharged from the Naval and Military Service"], and to insert instead thereof the word "or."

Mr. HARDY

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered the question that there is a new Service now in a Bill before this House, and if this Bill is going through it is very desirable that it should include the Air Service as finding disabled men to sit on these committees. I do not think we ought to forget them.

Mr. HODGE

If it is considered essential, I have no objection to accepting the suggestion, but, at the present moment, "Naval" covers airmen in the Royal Naval Air Service and "Military Service" covers the Royal Army Flying Corps. If it is thought desirable, however, to insert the words the right hon. Gentleman suggests, I have no objection.

Mr. HARDY

I did not propose to suggest it now, but rather to ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear it in memory at a later stage.

Mr. HOGGE

May I remind the Pensions Minister and the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the Bill we were considering yesterday reserves the right of pensions both for the Navy and the Army airmen, even if they were brought into the new Service, so that the words as they stand would cover it?

Mr. HARDY

I would only remind the hon. Gentleman that it may provide for those at present in the Service, but not for those who will join the new Air Service.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HODGE

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words during the present War."

Mr. HOGGE

I would like my right hon. Friend to say why he confines it to the present War. Will he bear in mind this fact, that the Minister of Pensions, and indeed the Government, have already promised that the pensions of other soldiers and sailors who have been disabled in previous wars have got to be brought into line with the present Warrants? For instance, there were the people who were engaged in the South African War. While it is probably right that the representatives should be of men who have fought in the present War, I do not think you should exclude representatives of men who have fought in previous wars, especially in the South African War. I would ask my right hon. Friend if he has considered that point?

Colonel Sir HAMAR GREENWOOD

As this stands, and without any explanation. I for one do not see my way to support the Amendment. In the first place, a statutory date has to be fixed from which this starts, or rather on which the War in some remote future will end; but I see no reason why a man who was disabled and eligible after this War finishes, say, on 1st January, 1920, should be precluded from sitting on a committee. In the second place, I support the view of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) that there is no reason why the membership of these committees should be restricted to those soldiers who, unhappily, have been disabled in this War. Some of the finest representatives of the Army and Navy are men who have been disabled in previous wars, or those who may be disabled in future wars. Therefore, unless the Minister of Pensions has an explanation, which I for one do not now perceive, I cannot support his Amendment.

Mr. HODGE

The reason for putting these words in was that members generally thought that, as the Pensions Ministry were not dealing with the pensions of old soldiers disabled in the Boer War, or any other previous war, and as the men disabled in the present War were the most deeply interested, they were the men who should be elected for these committees. I have got no feeling in the matter at all. I am quite conscious of the fact that many of our old soldiers are most excellent men, and would make most excellent members of the committees, but the general desire of hon. Members who came to me was that I should confine it to soldiers engaged in the present War. If it is the feeling of the Committee that they do not want these limiting words, I shall bow to their feeling.

Sir GEORGE TOULMIN

I am not quite sure the Pensions Minister is not right. You are not putting a deprivation upon anyone; you are giving a special privilege to those engaged in the present War whom it is necessary to have represented on these committees. Any old soldier injured in the Boer War is not precluded from being on a committee; he may be, and very likely will be, put on the committee. But we do want, I think, generally to secure that those who have passed through this War shall certainly be on every one of these committees.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HOGGE

I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words "and an additional woman who must be the widow of a deceased soldier."

This Amendment would make the scheme complete, and I am rather keen on this addition for this reason: The local war pensions committees throughout the country are so framed to-day that the provision for women upon them is left rather indeterminable. It simply says, I think, that two of the number of the committee must be women. It does not specify who those women should be. I think the House will recognise that during this War there are many women who have become widows who are among the most intelligent members of the community. I know, for instance, in the city of Edinburgh that the women belonging to the Co-operative Guild, to the number of 200 strong, study the question of pensions from week to week and carry their knowledge out among the members of the co-operative society in Edinburgh, and they are doing a very excellent work in that respect. There are other hon. Members in the House with the same experience in other towns. The cases that come before the local war pension committee are usually concerned with the domestic affairs of the women and children of the men who have been killed, and I can conceive no better representative on those committees than the widow of one of those soldiers who has been killed. I am not asking that the Minister of Pensions should knock off the two women who are already on, but I ask that in addition to the two already provided for he should add a third who is of this status, so that those applying to the local war pensions committee may have the benefit of advice of this kind. Seeing that the Pensions Minister has accepted nearly all the other Amendments suggested, I hope he will accept this suggestion and complete the comprehensive nature of the new committee.

Mr. HODGE

I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. This is primarily a Bill for the purpose of putting disabled men on these committees, and not a measure to alter the general balance. As women are already on the councils I do not see that this proposal is essential, more particularly as the disabled men we are putting on will surely be the best men to look after the women. I hope my hon. Friend will not press this proposal, because if he does we should require to make an alteration in the title of the Bill, because it does not cover this point. At any rate, women are provided for on the councils. We have now provided for the disabled soldier, and I think my hon. Friend might be content with that.

Mr. PRICE

I am sorry the Minister of Pensions has made the speech he has because it is a very important thing that we should have the widow of a deceased soldier on these committees. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh referred to some women in the Co-operative Guild. I attended myself one of these guilds, and I was very much surprised to find the great interest which these women were taking in this matter. If you accept this Amendment you will have an additional woman on these committees, and there is no part of the community affected so much as the women are in regard to this question. It sometimes happens that the interests of the disabled soldier is different to the interests of the widow, and in order to see that justice is done I think we should have a representative of this class on the committee.

Mr. PENNEFATHER

I should like to support this Amendment. I have received a good many letters from women interested in this question, and I wish to add my voice to those who have been urging the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment.

Sir H. HARRIS

I hope the right hon. Gentleman, before accepting this Amendment, will consider the advisability of giving a wider definition to one of the women already provided for on the committee. Perhaps that would meet the case, and then we should not require the provision that the widow of a deceased soldier should be on the committee. That suggestion might meet our wishes. I agree it would be useful to have the widow of a deceased soldier on the local committee.

Sir G. TOULMIN

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider what he has said about this Amendment. I wish to suggest, however, that "the widow of a deceased soldier" may prove a very wide definition, and what we require is to provide for the widow or dependant receiving a pension. Soldiers will die after the War, and these women will become widows of deceased soldiers although those soldiers may die a natural death. I think some additional definition is required. In regard to the principle generally, I think you require that the element of women on these committees should be strengthened.

Mr. HARDY

I think there may be some considerable difficulty in accepting this Amendment at the present stage. I welcome the idea suggested that some definition might be given to one of the women already on the committee that they should be the dependant or someone connected with a disabled soldier. I do not see why it should be limited to soldiers and why we should not have sailors. I think that would be a very acceptable addition. Why should it be limited to the widow of the soldier. I think it is quite as necessary to provide for the wife of the sailor If you cannot really carry out the intention of the Committee by this Amendment I urge the hon. Member to withdraw it mow so that the Government can consider the point at a later stage.

Mr. ROWLANDS

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the suggestion which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ashford (Mr. Laurence Hardy) and that he will consider the advisability of giving a status to the widow on the committee. Those representing large industrial constituencies have received an enormous amount of correspondence in connection with these pensions, and they are quite aware that many of those widows would be quite capable of representing the interests of the other widows on a committee of this description. It would be of great service to the Minister himself to have intelligent women placed on these committees with practical experience to advise and help the local committee as to the requirements of the other widows. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will give the matter further consideration, and if he cannot accept this proposal now I trust that he will see that an Amendment to meet this point is put in on the Report stage.

Sir F. BANBURY

May I point out that the Amendment in its present form provides for an additional woman who must be the widow of a deceased soldier. There will be a very large number of soldiers who die who have never been wounded. It might be the widow of a soldier who has never fought in the War and who may have died. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment in its present form.

Colonel Sir CHARLES SEELY

Might I suggest that the Amendment should provide for the widow of a soldier or sailor who has lost his life on active service? The interests of the widow are not always the same as that of the disabled soldier. If you are going to accept recipients of pensions as you have done by previous Amendments you ought to complete the matter by putting additional women on the committees, and you ought to provide that one of these representatives should be the widow of a deceased soldier.

Sir H. GREENWOOD

I wish to reinforce what has been said on this point, that it should not only provide for the widow, but for any woman of proper age who has become the dependant of a sailor or soldier who has fallen in this War. The Committee has already adopted words confining it to the present War, and to be consistent it must be the widow of a soldier or sailor who has fallen in the present War. I support this Amendment on general grounds. The tendency of all committees of this kind is to be composed of people not always of the same class. I am for strengthening every committee by adding that class of the population who belong to the working classes, and who in the nature of things represent the largest majority of those who have actually served on our fronts, and who, consequently, represent the largest majority of sufferers. The hon. Member for Paddington (Sir H. Harris) said he would be content with an intimation from the Minister of Pensions that this would be put right by some ipse dixit of the right hon. Gentleman; but I am opposed to that. I feel sure that the Minister of Pensions, now that he knows the views of this Committee, will be willing to amend the suggested Amendment which has been moved by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge).

Mr. HODGE

It is perfectly evident from the Debate that while the view of the House is in favour of the widow of a soldier, or, as my hon. Friend has put it, the dependant of a soldier who has given up his life in this War, should be placed on the committee. May I point out, in answer to what has been said, that, so far as widows' pensions are concerned, you have a flat rate. The trouble we get is as to whether the assessment of the disability is right or wrong. In that case I take it that the assistance of the disabled soldier and sailor will be of inestimable value May I point out that I have initiated a reform which I think will meet with general approval to have medical referees in every district in the country, so that when a disabled soldier feels that he is being badly treated with respect to the amount of his pension he can go to the medical referee, who will make an examination from the doctor's own personal knowledge of the particular industry or locality, the local doctor being the best for that purpose. The disabled man should be upon the committee, in order to see that no obstacle is placed in the way of the disabled soldier being sent to the medical referee. There is, therefore, no real case for a disabled man, but, so far as a widow being required to look after the interests of widows is concerned, there are no troubles, because it is a flat rate, and of course the alternative pension is a matter of ascertainment. I am perfectly willing, however, between now and the Report stage, to consider the matter and to see how far I can meet the desire of the Committee. Members of the House at the same time might be thinking over the problem and see how far they think it is essential to go in this particular direction.

Mr. HOGGE

I am much obliged to the Pensions Minister, and of course I accept his suggestion that he should be allowed to consider the matter between now and the Report stage. I think, however, he has quite overlooked the fact that the local war pensions committee, upon which we are appointing these disabled men and this suggested widow either of a soldier or sailor deals not only with questions of pensions, but with questions much more acute and intimate. For instance, it deals with the whole question of allowances for illness of children of serving soldiers and sailors; it deals with the whole question of supplemental allowances; it deals with the question of funeral expenses of children who die while their fathers are fighting; it deals with the vexed question of whether the dependants of apprentices shall get allowances on the basis of pre-war dependence. And I could go on and give a list of thirty or forty intimate things connected with the active life of the wives of soldiers and sailors who are serving with which the local war pensions committee deals day by day. I suggested that a widow should be on the committee, because she would be in receipt of a pension and therefore would not be affected by any of those other grants, although, having been the wife of a soldier or sailor, she would have had the experience of those grants and would be in a better position to give an opinion with regard to any decisions of the local war pensions committee on those matters than any other woman. I was thinking more of the special grants side of the Pensions Ministry.

Mr. WATT

When the right hon. Gentleman is considering this matter might I suggest to him, as it does not seem likely that he will adopt the suggestion to have the widow of a soldier or sailor, that there is the medium course of having one of the women at present on the committee the widow of a soldier or sailor who has fallen in the War. I need hardly say that I would prefer that he should put a third woman on the committee as proposed, but in that way this class would be represented.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HODGE

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the following new Sub-section:

(3) "There shall be included among the members of every sub-committee appointed under the said Section for any part of the area of a local committee for any county (including the County of London) or county borough, and among the members of every joint-committee appointed by two or more local committees, whether in either case appointed before or after the commencement of this Act, at least two such disabled men as aforesaid.

"Where any such sub-committee or and joint-committee has been appointed before the commencement of this Act the local committee or committees, as the case may be, by which it was appointed shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this Act, make the necessary appointment for the purpose of giving effect to the foregoing provision, and if the local committee, or committees, fail within such time, not being less than one month, as the Minister of Pensions may allow so to do, the Minister may himself make the appointment."

Mr. HARDY

It seems to me a little difficult to apply this new provision to every sub-committee. In the case with which I have acquaintance we have a very large number of sub-committees. We have endeavoured to get sub-committees in order to work the matter as easily and as speedily as possible. If there are to be two disabled men on every one of those sub-committees, it will really be a difficult matter to undertake. Sub-committees are free from the limitations of district committees. They are set up in different parts of a county. In the rural districts they are small, and in the urban districts they may be larger. There are nearly forty sub-committees in Kent, and there will be a very large number of these men to find. I do think that two on every sub-committee is too large a number to insist upon, and that the time of one month is extremely short to find something like eighty men of this character. Naturally, you want to make careful inquiry before you appoint a man. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered these points, but I think they are worthy of consideration.

Mr. HODGE

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the Amendment he will see that it is a sub-committee of an area. We do not want two disabled soldiers or sailors upon every sub-committee. That would be impossible. The idea is that there should be no sub-committee in an area without two disabled men, but not where they are divided into sub-committees to consider finance or any other special subject.

Mr. HARDY

I quite understand that.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.