HC Deb 20 March 1917 vol 92 cc723-9

(1) The administrative expenses of any local committee, or of any sub-committee thereof, established under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act), to an amount not exceeding such estimate as is hereinafter mentioned, shall be defrayed by the council of the county, or borough, or urban district for whose area the local committee is established, and the administrative expenses of any district committee appointed under the principal Act shall be defrayed as part of the expenses of the local committee for the county in whose area the district is situate.

(2) The council concerned shall, at such times as the Local Government Board may direct, submit to the Board an estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the local committee for such period as the Board may direct and the Board shall consider the estimate, and shall, if and so far as they consider the estimate reasonable, approve the estimate, and thereupon there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament at such times and in such manner as the Treasury may direct, sums equal in the aggregate to two-thirds of the expenses incurred not exceeding two-thirds of such estimate as so approved, and the sums so paid shall be paid to the council.

(3) Every local committee shall at such times as the Local Government Board may direct submit to the council of the county, borough, or urban district by whom the administrative expenses of the committee are to be defrayed, an estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the committee for such period as the Board may direct, and from time to time submit supplementary estimates.

(4) The expenses of a council under this Act, so far as not defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament, shall be defrayed out of the proceeds of such fund or rate as may be directed by the Local Government Board:

Provided that if a separate local committee has been established for any borough or urban district in a county the expenses of the local committee for the county shall be treated as expenses for special county purposes from contribution to which the borough or urban district shall be exempt.

(5) For the purposes of the foregoing provisions of this Section the administrative expenses of a local or sub-committee or district committee shall include travelling expenses and compensation for loss of remunerative time in the case of members of the committee or any sub-committee thereof calculated in accordance with Regulations made by the Minister of Pensions subject to the approval of the Treasury.

(6) Where in the exercise of the powers conferred by Section two of the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Expenses Act, 1916, the council of a county or borough or urban district have, before the passing of this Act, made, or hereafter make, payments towards the administrative expenses of any local committee or district committee appointed under the principal Act incurred in respect of the period before the passing of this Act, and the aggregate amount of such payments exceeds the one-third of the administrative expenses of the committee for such period, a sum equal to the excess shall, if and so far as the Local Government Board have sanctioned or may hereafter approve such expenses, be repaid to the council out of moneys provided by Parliament.

Sir N. HELME

I beg to Move, in Subsection (1), after the word "such" ["exceeding such"], to insert the word "approved."

The Amendment may be regarded as a mere drafting proposal, but I think it would remove any uncertainty that may arise in the future as to the estimate upon which the arrangement is to be based. There would be no uncertainty whatever in the future if the estimate was approved, and the fact of correspondence would be no difficulty whatever.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen)

I accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I beg to Move, in Sub-section (2) to leave out the words, "The council concerned"[(2)"The council concerned shall"], and insert instead thereof the words "Every local committee."

This Amendment and two others which stand on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend are all concerned with the same point, namely, to make clear the method whereby the estimate will be submitted by the local committee to the local authority, and by them to the Local Government Board; and I think I had better make a statement in moving this Amendment. The Amendments are neces- sary, because in the Committee stage the Bill was amended and left in a rather obscure position. The effect of the first Amendment is perfectly simple. It comes to this: The local committee will submit their estimate, and their estimate will go to the local authority, and the local authority can approve or modify it, and will forward the estimate so approved and modified, to the Local Government Board, who will finally approve of it. I quite agree that the Amendments, as they appear on the Paper, do not carry that out, and I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend, and I propose to move them in rather a different form. The first Amendment now stands exactly as it is on the Paper. The next Amendment will read, in Subsection (2), after the word "direct"["may direct"], to insert the words "and may from time to time submit for approval supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Board may direct, forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval, or modify as they may think fit. "The effect of that will be to secure altogether the control of the local authority. The local authority will have the right to disapprove or modify. Subsection (2), with the Amendments inserted, will read," Every local committee shall at such time as the Local Government Board may direct, submit for approval to the council by which the administrative expenses are to be defrayed the estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the local committee in such a period as the Board may direct, and may from time to time submit for approval supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Local Government Board may direct forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval, or modify as they may think fit, The Board shall consider all estimates so submitted and shall if and so far as they consider any such estimate reasonable, and the rest as it appears.

Mr. P. A. HARRIS

I did not quite follow the words read out, and I am not quite sure whether they meet the objections of some local authorities. In Committee the Parliamentary Secretary accepted in principle the contention that the local elected authority should have the right not only to criticise, but, if necessary, refer back the estimates of the Pensions Committee. That was the object of my various Amendments. As far as I can gather from the rather complex wording of the latest Amendments that difficulty is met. I do want an assurance that the elected authority which is responsible for raising a portion of the money out of the rates, shall have direct control, and, if necessary, can refer back for consideration those estimates which they consider excessive. If we have an assurance that the words have that intention and will bring about that result I, for one, shall be satisfied. The wording does not make that quite clear even now.

9.0 P.M.

Sir RYLAND ADKINS

I think, when my hon. Friend reads this and the consequential Amendments, he will find that it is really perfectly clear. We are all agreed on the position. It is of great importance that Parliament should make the position perfectly manifest. The obligation of finding this money is placed on the local authorities, and, therefore, any estimate submitted to them must be submitted for approval and sent on by them only if approved or as modified by them. The Government Department, which is giving two-thirds of the money, has also properly the right of approval. The two sources of revenue, that as to two-thirds and that as to one-third, imply conscious approval of the authority pertaining to that portion. As long as that is made clear, I think we are all agreed. In my reading, the Amendments to be proposed make the matter perfectly clear. I want to put on record what we intend to have in this matter. We are grateful to the Government for agreeing, and I think we have now got it into line with the ordinary methods of local government in this country.

Mr. HARDY

I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having considered, the suggestion I made in Committee. I am quite sure this is the right way now. I did not like the Clause as it was printed in Committee. It seems to me to be quite correct now, and I am perfectly satisfied.

Mr. BARNES

Before these Amendments are passed I should like to give the assurance asked for by the hon. Member (Mr. P. A. Harris) as to the local authority having a controlling voice in regard to expenditure out of the local pates. I can assure my hon. Friend, whether or not that appeared in the Clause before, it is in now.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (2), after the word "submit"["submit to the Board"], insert the words "for approval."

After the word "Board"["submit to the Board"], insert the words "the council by which the administrative expenses of the committee are to be defrayed."— [Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I beg to move, after the word "direct"["as the Board may direct"], to insert the words "and may from time to time so submit supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Board may direct forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval or modified as they may think fit."

Sir R. ADKINS

I did not catch whether the words "for approval," which appeared in an earlier line, are applied to the estimates submitted by the committee to the council.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

Yes.

Colonel Sir CHARLES SEELY

Is it quite clear that the words "such estimates" include both the original and supplementary estimates?

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I think there is no doubt that they do include both the original and any supplementary estimates.

Sir N. HELME

Will the hon. Gentleman accept the suggestion that the words "for approval" might be inserted either after the word "submit" or after the word "estimates"?

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

It is rather difficult to follow the words just now, but if they are necessary they shall be put in in another place.

Sir N. HELME

When the hon. Member spoke a few minutes ago he used the words "for approval," but in the form of the Amendment just read out those words do not appear.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I put them in before, in the previous Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "the estimate"["shall consider the estimate"], and insert instead thereof the words "all estimates so submitted."— [Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]

Leave out Sub-section (3).—[Mr. Barnes.]