HC Deb 29 June 1917 vol 95 cc709-27

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Barnes)

It falls to my lot to ask the assent of the House to the Second Reading of this Bill, which, I hope I may be able to think, is uncontentious, having already been agreed to by both sides of those immediately and directly concerned, and which, I believe, also meets with the general approval of those who have taken special interest in pensions and matters appertaining to grants and allowances made in consequence of the present War. The Bill is for the dissolution of the Statutory Committee and the apportionment of its powers and duties to the Minister of Pensions, and to a new authority. Inasmuch as when this Bill finally passes this will be the end of the Statutory Committee, I think it is only right that I should say a word or two about that body and about its vice-chairman, because both the body and its vice-chairman have been referred to in somewhat uncomplimentary terms in this House on more than one occasion. The Statutory Committee was set up in consequence of a Bill passed by this House two years ago. It started its operations about January of last year. It has done a very great deal of useful work. It was my privilege to sit on that Committee for about a year. Upon the Committee, during the whole of that time, there were a number of men and women who did hard, disinterested work, work which was not performed in the limelight, which got no recognition. It was a sort of work of a most disinterested character, done by men and women because of their special knowledge and interest in the wives and dependants of soldiers and sailors. That work has been continued right up to date. I know pretty well that many men and women have given up their time to this work. As a result of it I believe that health, hope, and comfort have been taken into many thousands of homes throughout the length and breadth of the country.

During the early part of last year the Committee were faced with what I venture to say was a very great problem. That was, how to get the benefit of certain provisions made in Parliament distributed by means of local agencies, throughout the whole length and breadth of the country, into the homes of the people. I know, because I was there at the time, what a tremendous problem presented itself to the Committee. The problem was, however, tackled with the assistance of Sir Samuel Provis and others who had special knowledge of the local government of the country. As a result 300 committees were set up as between then and last August. The date had been fixed for 1st July. It was first of all thought that all those committees would have been set up by that date. As a matter of fact, they were set up between the beginning of the year and last August. In the result we have now, I venture to say, one of the finest of agencies in a whole network of local committees throughout the country in actual daily touch with the people who are to benefit; that work has been largely due to the disinterested efforts of men and women with special knowledge of the sailor and soldier and the needs of the family that are dependent upon them. I want to say a word about the vice-chairman. I do so because I think it is only due to him. There have not been wanting suggestions from time to time that the appointment of a vice-chairman was a waste of public money. There were, as I think, unfair suggestions that he was lingering superfluous upon the scene. Only yesterday there was on the printed matter of the House a question in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset in which there was more than a suggestion that the salary paid to the vice-chairman was a waste of public money, and the suggestion was made that he should be dispensed with.

I want to say this for the vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, that he has worked very hard. He has not stayed on because he wanted to stay on; on the contrary, during the time of transition between the old and new methods of doing things he was the necessary officer to remain to get the new people into the paths in which they had to travel. As a matter of fact, far from him doing what has been suggested, his own personal inclination was to go six months ago, when the Statutory Committee was put in a different position. He has only stayed since on the urgent representations made to him from time to time both by myself and others. Therefore he has occupied the position since last December only in consequence of those urgent representations, and because he felt he was doing a public duty in sticking to his job. It is only due that that should be said of the vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee. He has rendered work of a very valuable kind, and is entitled to recognition of this House and the country. In spite of the good work done by the Statutory Committee, the Statutory Committee was found to be an impossible institution. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh will remember that only a few days before setting up the Pensions Department I said I did not care a row of pins whether or not a Pensions Department was set up. I was concerned in getting money for the homes of the people in question. I was in hopes that there would have been a perfection of existing machinery so as to enable that to be done. However, the House thought differently. A Pensions Department was set up last December, and has been going on ever since. We have tried our best— both the Pensions Ministry and the Statu- tory Committee—to get on amicably efficiently under conditions set up by this House when the Pensions Ministry was established. The House will remember that it was decided that the Statutory Committee should be placed under the control of the Pensions Minister. As I say we tried to work that system efficiently. I am glad to say we got on amicably. There has been no dispute between us. But we very soon began to find that the work could not be done efficiently. I will give an instance of this to the House

The Statutory Committee, under the Act of 1915, had imposed upon it the duty of looking after the treatment and training of disabled men. Last December we were placed in control of the Statutory Committee. Therefore all that could be done by us in connection with the treatment and training of disabled men, according to Act of Parliament, through the Statutory Committee, was done. We tried honestly. We met the Statutory Committee and the chairman on 16th January. We tried all we could to arrange what we hoped would be an agreement whereby we could get things done. That was found impossible, and I will tell the House why. Whatever were the duties of the Statutory Committee regarding treatment and training we were inundated with applications from the country to get on with the treatment and training. It was borne in upon our minds that treatment and training were the most important part of our work, and that therefore somebody had to get on to it at once. The Statutory Committee were preoccupied in all sorts of detailed things connected with pensions, allowances, and grants, and so on, and they could not get on with it, and we said, taking our courage in both hands, "Very well; we will do it ourselves." That meant that my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and myself had to go outside and get in touch with people primarily concerned—that is to say, the local committees—and, having got in touch with those people, we found it impossible to come back to London and say to them, "You must first of all write to the Statutory Committee, or if you write to us we must consult the Statutory Committee." It meant a waste of time, duplicating things, and inefficiency; in fact, it was an impossible position, and therefore we had frankly to go to the Statutory Committee and say, "Now we have tried to work this agreement of the 16th January. We are sure you on your side have tried too. Do you not think the whole position is altogether impossible?" And I am glad to. say that, in the most amicable manner, the Statutory Committee agreed that it was impossible, and that if treatment and training of disabled men had to be done efficiently and promptly, then one or the other of us should do it. Well, we decided that the Ministry should do it. They agreed, and on the 19th April, I think, they drew up a letter to the Prime Minister in which they frankly stated that the position had been found to be impossible. They asked the Prime Minister to relieve them of their duties, and said that their duties should be. handed over to the Ministry or some other body as speedily as possible.

That leads us to the Bill. The Bill, in effect, regularises what the Ministry has already done—what it was compelled to do—and puts things on a better basis for the future. I need not say anything more about treatment and training except that we have done for treatment and training what the Statutory Committee did last year for the distribution of moneys in the way of pensions, grants, and allowances—that is to say, that on the basis of their 300 and odd local committees we have now set up a network of machinery especially for treatment and training over larger areas than any one of the local committees presided over, and I am glad to say that work is going on efficiently and well, and, as a result, we hope to do for the men what no pensions can do for them, what no moneys can do for them, to fit them up, so to speak, and put them back in life as self-respecting, productive units. We are doing that, and we are not only going to do something for the benefit of the men, but I venture to think we are going to save the country a lot of money which otherwise might be wasted in pensions, because, after all, it is far better to make a man whole, mentally and physically, than to give a few shillings pension and encourage him to eke out his life in laziness. That is going on all right, but there are other things to be done. There are separation allowances. We propose that that matter should be turned over from the Statutory Committee to the Ministry of Pensions. There is also the making of advances in case of delay in giving pensions. All these things we propose to take over from the Statutory Committee—treatment and training, separation allowances, and the making of advances in respect to pensions. All those things are things that can be done according to fixed rules and regulations.

There still remain other things that cannot be done by the Ministry so well as by an outside body. In the payment of pensions you have to pay according to some warrant or rules drawn up. That is absolutely necessary. There can be no elasticity in them. If there were elasticity, it would be open to abuse. If, for instance, money was distributed according to the merits of a case, or according to the needs of a case, you would have all sorts of illegitimate pressure brought to bear upon Members of this House, and therefore those who have access to Members of this House would be better off than other people. Therefore, far that and other reasons, it is necessary that, in addition to the Ministry of Pensions, there must be some outside authority to deal with those cases that cannot possibly come within the regular outlines of a warrant. There has been the case, which has been several times mentioned in the House, of men dealt with for disciplinary reasons, and whose families have to suffer. You cannot deal with them by a warrant, but you can deal with them by an authority which has some discretion, and, therefore, some authority has to give pensions, where they cannot be paid out of public funds, to educate the children of widows and to train widows and children, and so on. We propose, under the Bill, that that should be done by the Patriotic Fund Corporation. It is a corporation that has already a great deal of experience in dispensing voluntary funls. It is a statutory body. Therefore it is a body having already a position in the community, and it is a body that is the most suitable we can find for taking over duties of a kind that cannot be performed by the Ministry. We propose, however, that it should be slightly altered and given more of a popular character. At present the general assembly of the Patriotic Fund consists, of mayors, provosts, lord lieutenants, and chairmen of county councils. They have a meeting once a year, and from that meeting they appoint an executive. The executive, however, is partly appointed by Government Departments, two from the War Office, I think, one from the Admiralty, and one from the Treasury. We propose that that executive, which consists at present of a number so selected anywhere between twelve and twenty, should now have infused into it a popular element appointed by the Government, and that an additional four such members should be put upon the executive. After all, the executive is the important body here. The other body only meets once a year. The executive are meeting all the time, and we propose that this executive, which consists now of a number anywhere from twelve to twenty, should have an additional four members put upon it by the Government, that one of these four should be a woman, and that two of the four should be representative of labour. We think that with the infusion of this new element upon the Patriotic Fund Corporation it will be a body eminently suitable to deal with the outstanding problems after this Bill dissolves the Statutory Committee.

Mr. WING

You seem to have arranged for an executive, but how is it going to be popularly administered in the country?

Mr. BARNES

I do not know that it can be popularly administered in the country at all in the sense in which my hon. Friend has the words in his mind, I am afraid. This is a central body. It will be in touch, of course, with our local committees, or anyone it likes to make its agents, but, after all, it is a central body, and will have the control of moneys from Parliamentary funds. The Statutory Committee had £1,000,000 granted to it some time ago to meet the cases of distress, and so on, which could not be met by public funds. It has also got a considerable amount of voluntary money, and money has been sent from time to time to the Statutory Committee for covering those cases which could not be covered by public funds. Those moneys have come in without any appeal, and the question remains what shall be done with them. We propose that, as regards three-fourths, it should go back to the Treasury. There is only £1,000,000 in question, and £750,000 of that we suppose should go back to the Treasury, and £250,000 plus voluntary funds we propose should be handed over to the Patriotic Fund Corporation to be used for the purposes which I have mentioned. As to control, it necessarily follows that Parliament will have control over it, and will call upon the body disbursing the money to render an account of it. To be quite frank with the House, I may say we have discussed two methods of dealing with this money.

One of them is the handing over of £250,000 in one sum and the other is handing it over so much per year, so as to bring the corporation more within the control of Parliament. I may say that we have decided upon handing it over as a lump sum, because we do not think it is a good thing that detailed criticisms should come to this House on such questions as will come before this corporation. I think I have now covered the main points of this Bill. I am sorry that I have not had time to get a thorough grip of this measure, as I should have liked, but I think I have now covered its main outline, and I hope the House will give it a Second Reading.

Mr. HOGGE

Like my right hon. Friend who has just sat down, I have not had time to see exactly what this Bill will do in reference to existing Statutes. Consequently, I am glad that it is not proposed to go any further with it to-day than the Second Reading, and so we may have time to see exactly what the proposed changes mean. Therefore. I will not make more than a very few remarks now. Naturally, I am very glad that the Government have of late made this attempt to co-ordinate all the schemes for dealing with pensions. I was quite sure in my own mind that we made a mistake when we were setting up the Ministry of Pensions by not including straight away the Statutory Committee, and I felt quite sure that eventually my right hon. Friend would find that, however amicably the two bodies worked together, it was impossible to continue them without being brought under the same roof. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon having found the business solution of this difficulty which is suggested in the Bill. As regards Mr. Cyril Jackson, the vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, I never had any objections in my life to him, but I always had a very strong objection to the chairman or vice-chairman of any Committee being a salaried official. I hold the view which I then expressed that there should never have been any salary attached to the chairmanship or the vice-chairmanship of this Committee, and I agree that you ought to have had a secretary with a salary attached to it, and that post ought to have been filled by Mr. Cyril Jackson. I have never received anything but the utmost courtesy in my dealings with Mr. Cyril Jackson, and I have always found him a thorough and efficient public servant. I hope my right hon. Friend, in the adjustments he will make under this Bill, will utilise the admitted knowledge of Mr. Jackson in regard to the many problems which will have to be tackled by the Ministry.

The only point I want to criticise is what has been outlined with regard to the Royal Patriotic Fund. I hope my right hon. Friend is not going to make once more the mistake he made when he decided to continue the Statutory Committee. The Royal Patriotic Fund was brought into the Statutory Committee when it was set up, and we thought then that we had reached the end of the Royal Patriotic Fund as a fund, and that any moneys which were to be administered over and above any pensions should in future be administered by the Statutory Committee which was controlled through the Local War Pensions Committees popularly elected in all the areas throughout the country. I do not want to criticise the Royal Patriotic Fund adversely, but I think the House will agree that it is a charitable fund, and in that sense any money which was given from the Patriotic Fund in connection with any case obviously has the element of charity in it. Now, I consider that in dealing with these men and their wives and dependants arising out of any consequences of the War, they should be dealt with simply as a matter of justice and nothing else, and there ought to be no question of any charity in it.

I agree with my right hon. Friend that exceptional cases arise. Take, for example, a man who is shot at the front for desertion. A man may have deserted for reasons for which there may be much excuse, because none of us who have not been in that position know what it is to meet the dangers and difficulties these men have to meet. If in such a case a man is shot for that reason, then his widow and children get absolutely nothing from the State. There is no fund or Regulation which provides for the widow of a man shot under those circumstances. I think everybody will agree that the wife and children of such a man who has been keeping a home together here have not deserted their post, and they ought to be provided for. I would put them under a Government Department and not under a charitable institution. While those cases must be provided for, I think the general case ought to be also provided for, and ought to come within the four corners of the Government scheme. I am not without hope, and I am quite sure the Minister of Pensions is not, that the Government is likely to do yet more for the disabled soldier and sailor, and we have not seen the end of what the Government will do. I wish my right hon. Friend would get up and give reasons, which I know he can do, why the Government should give more in certain cases.

I am rather anxious that what the Government will eventually do will be done under the Government auspices. It is proposed to give £250,000 of public money to the Royal Patriotic Fund, which has had its whole constitution altered by the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, and the right hon. Gentleman has announced that he is going to democratise the Executive Committee of this fund by putting upon it four new people, one of whom is to be a woman and two are to be drawn from the representatives of labour. I do not know why, whenever you want to represent people, you should suggest the putting on of two representatives of labour, I do not think that labour has any monopoly of the representation of the people. There are, 'after all, only forty Labour Members in this House, and I think the other 630 would resent the implication that they do not represent the working men in their constituencies. Take my own Constituency. It is a working-class constituency entirely, and nobody would say that I do not represent the workmen of my Constituency. I do not like this idea that whenever you want to make a, committee popular you say you are going to put on two representatives of labour. There are many other men, both in the country and in this House, who represent the people as well as the Labour party. Then there is the woman, and I do not know who the fourth is to be. Surely if you are going to give a quarter of a million to a committee on the excuse that you are putting four new members on the executive, that is not a strong enough reason why this House should agree to it! Under the Statutory Committee's Regulations, which my right hon. Friend is now going to take over, under Part II. of those Statutory Regulations, he could make himself Regulations which would cover all the cases he now proposes to refer to the Royal Patriotic Fund. I would like him, or the Parliamentary Secretary, to deal with that point, because it is the kind of point that will probably be raised in Committee. You have now under the Naval and Military War Pensions Act sufficient power to make new Regulations. In fact, the Statutory Committee have made Regulations twice since they were set up, and my right bon. Friend could make new Regulations.

I suggest that he should get into his head the wiping of the Royal Patriotic Fund out of the picture altogether. The Ministry of Pensions is a new Government Department. It is a young Department, and, in spite of the mistakes which it has made, and I dare say will make, yet as one of its most consistent and, perhaps, strongest critics I admit that it has been doing good work, and has been getting through that work. I am very glad to see the great improvement that has come over the work since the right bon. Gentleman has been able to settle down to the routine of the Ministry; but while I say that it is a Government Department, I would like it to be a complete Government Department. I would like the Government Department to take State control of the whole question, and I do not want us only to be able to say to anybody who comes to one of us after the State has made provision that it is a case for the Royal Patriotic Fund and that we cannot deal with it. If there is a case that cannot be dealt with under the Regulations themselves the money that is provided for that case ought not to be provided by the Government. If anybody outside cares to set up a new patriotic fund association, or any other body, and to provide the money out of their own pockets, then they can do that, as the Lord Kitchener Memorial does for officers, over and above what the State does. If, however, you begin to put into the funds of the organisation any State money, you raise the question of State control and of every action of that committee being criticised by this House, making it impossible for that organisation to work on voluntary lines with the freedom with which it ought to work if it is a voluntary organisation. I do not like, and never have liked, an organisation which is neither the one thing nor the other, and the only criticism I want to make at this period of the proceedings—because we can have it all again in Committee—is to suggest that between now and then my right hon. Friend can devise some means by which if the Royal Patriotic Fund is to be recreated as a new organisation outside it ought to stand on its own financial feet and receive no Grant from the Government. If he feels that there are cases that cannot be dealt with by the present Regulations or Instructions, I think the House of Commons would prefer that he should take the powers he now has to draw up new Instructions to cover those cases, and I am sure that the House would support him; and that it would be a better, more complete, and more satisfactory way of dealing with this problem than not setting up but financing an organisation which has already been incorporated in the Statutory Committee. At the same time, I welcome the proposal to incorporate the Statutory Committee in the Ministry of Pensions, and I hope that the scheme will come into speedy operation.

Mr. CHARLES ROBERTS

I certainly welcome the Bill as it now stands. We have all had experience of these semi-independent bodies, partially under the control of Ministers, and I think they never work well. You do not get full ministerial responsibility; any attempt to secure full ministerial responsibility is never a success, and you do not get the control by this House. I am very glad the change of system has been made, and that the Minister of Pensions will have far the greater part of the work under his control. In saying that I am quite certain no one wishes to reflect on the very unselfish and disinterested work of the Statutory Committee. It is a change of system which we are welcoming to-day, and not in the least a reflection on or want of recognition of the work they have accomplished. I am also quite certain that in connection with the work the Ministry is doing for the treatment and training of disabled soldiers the House wishes to recognise what excellent work is being done by his Department throughout the country. I am quite clear that his task will be very much facilitated by the change introduced in this Bill. For my part, I certainly wished beforehand that the War Office should take over the whole work of the treatment and training of disabled soldiers before their discharge, but if the War Office find themselves unable to do that all I can say is that I should like to bear my testimony to the work the Ministry of Pensions and the pensions committees up and down the country are doing in this respect. I am quite certain that a great amount of very valuable work is being done in this direction.

I do not think I can agree with the remarks that have fallen from the last speaker on the subject of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation. I think one understands the difficulty. If these cases which fall outside the Warrant, and in which you want individual discretion, are to be dealt with by the Ministry of Pensions you must have cast-iron regulations, and then you are invariably met with hard cases which the letter of your Warrant prevents your dealing with in any satisfactory way. The Ministry of Pensions, as I understand it, wants to find a half-way-house You may say, as the last hon. Member who spoke suggested, that you should leave it entirely to charity and voluntary subscriptions. Everyone feels, I think, that would be unsatisfactory, and that if the work was left to voluntary agencies it would only be partially "dealt with. There would be in a great number of cases strong objections to their being left to charitable aid, and therefore for my part I do think you want a halfway house. Whether the Royal Patriotic Fund, as modified, is the best body may be open to question, but I think you do need some fund of the kind, supplied with public money, and under the control of this House to some extent, which will have a freer hand than you can get in any other way. I think the more people get face to face with cases of real individual hardship, which always must crop up in some way that you cannot think of in drafting the terms of your Warrant, the more they will wish to have a freer hand in administering public funds or such other funds as you can get. The only other word I wish to say is to the Minister of Pensions. In taking over the staff does he think there will be any economy effected or will there be a duplication of the staff? He takes part of the staff. Can he tell us whether he will take the whole? Perhaps in this amalgamation he will be able to lessen the administrative expenses of his Department and to secure economy.

Mr. H. P. HARRIS

This Bill is really an inevitable complement to the creation of the Ministry of Pensions and a desire for the concentration of authority. Moreover, when the Statutory Committee was created it was thought that a large quantity of the fund provided by voluntary contributions was involved. As a member of the Statutory Committee, I desire to add my testimony to the large amount of good work of which they were in many cases pioneers. Many criticisms have been directed against them which ought to have been directed to other sources. I desire to reserve my opinion as to the Patriotic Funds Corporation until I have had time to consider the matter. There are a good many cases outside the Warrant which ought to be brought in, but there are a certain number of cases which must be looked upon as requiring patient treatment which might have been better dealt with than by the active body of the Ministry of Pensions. As regards the constitution of the Patriotic Fund Corporation, I say it may require some consideration whether it may not be possible to make it more effective than by introducing four new members. I desire to support the Bill and to recognise the courtesy and consideration that I have received from the Vice-Chairman of the Statutory Committee in all the difficult cases I had to put before him.

Mr. A. ALLEN

As a member of the Statutory Committee, I desire to say we cordially welcome the Bill which the right hon. Gentleman has introduced. I desire to associate myself with what he has said with regard to the excellent work that Mr. Cyril Jackson has performed. I have sat on the Committee a long time, and I know that he has given his whole time most devotedly to the work. I think his services have been extremely valuable. I agree with the last speaker in saying that the Bill is a necessary complement to the Act which set up the Ministry of Pensions. For my part, I thought from the first that the life of the Statutory Committee could not be long. I am glad that it is now being found practicable to bring the whole duties within the purview of the Minister of Pensions. We have endeavoured to work amicably and in concert with the Minister of Pensions, but it was almost impossible that two bodies of this kind should work permanently together, if for no other reason than that local committees throughout the country found themselves in the position of serving two masters. That was an impossible position which it was necessary to bring to an end at the earliest possible moment. The right hon. Gentleman recognised that there would be a considerable number of border-line cases which could not be dealt with by any Regulations or conditions. I have always maintained that it would be impossible to pass Regulations worked by any Ministry with the best will in the world that would cover these border-line cases, because large local committees felt very strongly about them and would resent dealing with them out of charitable funds.

Speaking of the Royal Patriotic Fund Committee, I reserve my judgment because I do not know much about it. It has never struck me as being a democratic body, and I am not sure even that which is suggested by the Minister of Pensions has its democratic character well marked. That is a matter which we must reserve for the Committee stage. I hope that between now and the Committee stage the Minister will give considerable attention to what shall be the union with that outside body, whatever it may be, and the local committees throughout the country, because most of these cases will come from the local committee—cases which are turned down by the Minister of Pensions which the local committees feel strongly about. 2.0 P.M.

I think it is necessary to establish a system by which they shall have direct access to the new body, and to which they can present a case about which they feel strongly. I only wish to say that I agree very fully with the need for the Bill.

Mr. T. WING

I desire to associate myself with the kindly references to the Vice-Chairman and the Department generally, from whom I always received the most courteous consideration. I look upon the Bill as an exceedingly wise step, but there are one or two things which may make rather important developments. I do not like the idea of conferring upon the Royal Patriotic Society powers which up to the present time they have hardly possessed. I am in harmony with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that there are cases which stand outside the rules and regulations and conditions which it would be possible to deal with and which local committees are very well entitled to consider. There are to-day some means by which those local committees should know that they remain in existence, and that the public body, whatever name you may call it, should be set up in London, which should be in close contact with them but not connected with charity. We emerged from that state in the early part of the War. We have got the local committees who view the matter in a democratic way, seeing that the Government are going to provide large sums of money. Let any private organisation that exists continue and perform its beneficent work, but I do hope that this Bill will not be made the means of conveying money to a private organisation to perform that work which is a public responsibility. Apart from that, I have great pleasure in supporting the Bill.

Colonel YATE

I would like to join with the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) in protesting against the appointment of so many representatives of labour on these sub-committees. I agree with him as to the undesirability of these Orders. My experience is that when so many representatives of labour axe ordered to be appointed the committees concerned simply send to the Trades Council or the Women's Federation of Labour for the town and ask them to nominate so many members, and when you come to see who are nominated you find that the men and women selected spend Sunday after Sunday in the marketplace protesting against everything concerned with soldiers, recruiting, and with the War generally. I hope, therefore, that the Ministry of Pensions will take this matter into consideration, and, when issuing the Orders, will try to get men who really know the wants of the soldiers, such as men belonging to the Old Comrades' Association and people who really take an interest in the soldier and know his wants and his needs, and will give the committee advice as to his particular necessities. I am perfectly sure that the interests of the soldier either in pensions or anything else cannot be best served by members of Trades Councils and other organisations who spend their whole time in agitating against the soldier, and I trust that it will be possible for the men I have mentioned in future to be appointed on the sub-committees that have to deal with pensions.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Colonel Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen)

I desire to thank the House for the way in which they have received this Bill. I quite agree that it is really the natural outcome of the Act setting up the Ministry of Pensions. Much as we appreciate all that the Statu- tory Committee have done, and they have done a very great deal of which the House and the country is not aware, the position left was really almost an impossible one to work without friction, and this Bill is a necessary measure agreed to both by the Ministry of Pensions and the Statutory Committee. It has been asked why we cannot do everything ourselves under our own regulations. Whatever regulations are made, and however liberal and generous your warrant may be, and we wish our warrant to be liberal and generous, there must always remain cases of real "hardship that you cannot get within the four walls of any particular regulations, and there must be some body to meet those cases. If we tried to do it ourselves, we should be judging our own case. We should, on the one hand, have rejected a case for a pension or have given a very small pension in accordance with our regulations, and then, on the other hand, we should be judging our own actions and supplementing them.

Mr. WING

We are doing it now.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

No; the Statutory Committee do it.

Mr. WING

The Pensions Committees make these supplemental payments.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

That is quite true. We make our awards according to the warrants, and the Statutory Committee on the advice of the local committees make supplementation. It is quite true technically that the Statutory Committee are now under our instructions and control, but we never have interfered with their work as regards supplementation. We could not, because if we did we should be judging our own cases and we could not undertake to do that directly ourselves. Therefore, some outside body is necessary, and we have suggested the Royal Patriotic Fund simply because it is there. The Statutory Committee in theory is a committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund, and it has been doing this sort of work all along. It is proposed to hand over to it Government money for these purposes, so that what is done will not be of a charitable order. It is also proposed to alter its constitution so as to make a more representative body, but whether we have done sufficient in that respect is a matter for consideration. If it is thought, instead of having adding four, that we ought to have added more, and that there should not be such a. large proportion of representatives of labour, we are quite willing to consider it. These representatives will be added on the nomination of the Crown, and not of any outside body, and we think that in that way we can secure the right sort of people to deal with these funds. This supplementation, we hope, will not be of a very large nature, because a great deal of the supplementation that has been going on, quite properly, in the past will be carried out under the Regulations of the now Warrant. The new Warrant goes much further than the old Warrant, and, therefore, supplementation is largely diminished. There will, however, be hard cases. If there are many hard cases of any particular character, it will be our duty to come to this House with another Warrant for that particular class; but hard eases are bound to arise, and some outside body, in our view, must exist. We cannot think of anything better than the Royal Patriotic Fund.

It has been asked how the Royal Patriotic Fund will act, and how they will get their information. The House knows quite well that the Statutory Committee act on the information and recommendations of the local committees, which are not touched by this Bill. They are the most valuable bodies in the Ministry of Pensions. We could not get on without them for a moment, and if this Bill is passed, and if the Royal Patriotic Fund undertakes the work of supplementation and of giving pensions in cases where they cannot be given under the Regulations, we shall certainly issue Instructions that they must only do so on the recommendations of the local committees. We shall have to put the local committees into direct touch with the Royal Patriotic Corporation for that purpose, just as the local committees will be in direct touch with the Ministry of Pensions for other purposes. The question has been asked how this House will exercise control over the Royal Patriotic Fund. I quite agree that is probably an omission from' the Bill and that something will have to be provided; but I do not see why there should not be a Member of this House a member of the executive of the Royal Patriotic Fund, and who will represent it in this House, just like my right hon. Friend, whom we are all glad to see has just become President of the Local Government Board, the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) used to represent the Statutory Committee. My right hon. Friend has asked me to mention a point which he accidentally omitted to mention himself. There is a Clause in the Bill which provides that the Minister may take advantage of the very ripe and valuable experience gained by the members of the Statutory Committee by asking some of them to become members of advisory committees to assist him on certain definite points. We all recognise the very valuable help that we can obtain from members of the Statutory Committee or those who are past members of the Statutory Committee, and I know it is the intention of the Minister to. avail himself of that Clause and to invite certain of those members, possibly the majority of them, to act as an advisory committee with him in certain matters. I hope the House will now give us the Second Reading of the Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday next.—[Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]

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