HC Deb 27 June 1917 vol 95 cc484-92

(1) Any expenses properly incurred by any registration officer in the performtion (including all proper and reasonabletion (including all proper and reasonable charges for trouble, care and attention in the performance of those duties), shall be paid by the council whose clerk the registration officer is, subject in cases where the registration area is not coterminous with or wholly contained in the area of that council to such contributions by the council of any other county or borough as the Local Government Board may direct.

Any such expenses shall be paid in the case of the council of a county out of the county fund, and if the case requires as expenses for special county purposes, and in the case of a council of a borough out of the borough fund or borough rate, or, where there is no borough fund or borough rate, out of the fund or rate out of which the ordinary expenses of the council of the borough are paid.

(2) Any fees or other sum received by the registration officer in respect of his duties as such officer shall be accounted for by that officer and paid to the credit of the fund or rate out of which the expenses of that officer are paid.

(3) There shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to the council of any county or borough in aid of the fund or rate out of which any registration expenses are paid by the council, where those expenses do not exceed the maximum amount under a scale to be settled by the Treasury, one half of the amount so paid by the council, and where the expenses exceed that maximum, amount, one half of the maximum amount.

The following Amendments stood on the Paper in the names of Sir J. HARMOOD-BANNER and Mr. NIELD respectively: At the beginning of Sub-section (1) insert the words, "The registration officer shall be remunerated for his trouble, care, and attention in the performance of his duties in relation to registration out of moneys provided by Parliament according to a scale to be settled by the Treasury and"; in Sub-section (1), after the word "officer" ["registration officer"], to insert the words "or deputy registration officer if appointed."

The CHAIRMAN

The first Amendment is out of order as it proposes a money charge, and the second Amendment is covered by Clause 10.

Mr. NIELD

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "including" [" including all proper and reasonable charges"], to insert the words, "rent of offices, establishment expenses, salaries of staff, and."

I think this Amendment is necessary, and I hope the Home Secretary will see his way to accept it Take my own county. It is utterly preposterous that a county should do the work which this Bill puts upon it without taking perfectly new offices, new staff, and so on, and I think I shall be able to show at the proper time, on Report, that the work will require the appointment of an ad hoc officer to do it. It will illustrate what I have to say if I tell the Committee of the effect of Parliament throwing additional duties on the county council with which I am connected. The palatial buildings of the county council on the other side of Parliament Square were only opened at the end of 1914, and are now so full of the various officials and staff which have been found necessary by reason of the action of Parliament that to provide another room, however small, for a registration officer is an utter impossibility. That county, with its teeming population, is a county which has an enormous urban population; therefore the work will be terrific. Therefore I do think that power should be given as suggested in the Amendment. The provision required is not at present in the Bill, and unless it is to be ensured there will be no adequate means of meeting the expenses.

Sir G. CAVE

The point which the hon. and learned Gentleman has put is entirely covered by the words of the Clause which refer to any expenses properly incurred. If we were to specify certain expenses it might possibly throw doubt on the legitimacy of other expenses. I hope my hon. and learned Friend is satisfied.

Mr. NIELD

Having got the matter on the "note," so to speak, I am willing to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "duties" [" performance of those duties"], insert the words "and any costs incurred by him as party to an appeal."—[Sir G. Cave.]

Colonel SANDERS

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "shall" ["shall be paid"], to insert the words "be submitted to and so far as approved shall."

This gives the county council the power of audit over its clerk. The Bill says that anything the registration officer shall pay shall be paid by the county council These words will make it read "shall be submitted to and so far as approved shall be paid by the council." Surely the county council must have some right of looking into the expenses, which the registratoin officer sends in.

Sir G. CAVE

I follow that, but it wants a little consideration because, of course, the effect is that if the registration officer incurs expenses which the county council do not approve he has to bear them himself. I think there is a case to be made out for the possibility that this may happen—the county authority may pay all the expenses that are brought before them and then go to the Treasury and ask for half, and the Treasury may cut down the half, so that in the end more than half the costs will be placed on the local authority. I think that ought to be avoided, but it is a matter that requires consideration, and I will Bea whether words that can be accepted can be put down on the Report stage.

Colonel SANDERS

That is not entirely the point. The council must have some check on their clerk's expenditure, to see that the scale on which he is running his registration is reasonable.

Mr. DICKINSON

I hope the Home Secretary will not too rapidly make up his mind about this particular point. It is a rather difficult one, and personally I think the proper course is to treat the thing as a national business. The Treasury is the responsible authority, and if this is mixed up by bringing in the local authority I am certain you will get great complications. The clerk of the council, as I understand it, is in this question of registration to act as an independent officer. I think it is rather important to maintain that. He acts as an independent officer. The cost of his work is to be met half out of the Imperial Treasury and half out of the local treasury, and the duty of seeing that that expenditure is properly incurred, I think, should fall upon one and not upon two authorities. Of course, I do not quite know what is in the mind of the Government in regard to this particular question. Hitherto, as the Home Secretary is aware, the question of cost has come before the revising barrister. He was the authority to decide as to costs, and then the local authority had to pay whatever the sum might be. I have known some occasions when the local authority has been so parsimonious that the revising barrister has had to undertake an enormous amount of work in investigating claims which ought never to have been put before him, because the work was so badly done, and where he has announced that in future unless the work was better done he would not pass the accounts. There you have the authority of the revising barrister. I do not quite understand from the Home Secretary to whom the authority will be given in future. I take it that the authority may be the Treasury and that the Treasury would see that the work was economically and efficiently done, not only from the point of view of the local authority, but from that of the Imperial authority. I only make these observations because I think the matter needs to be looked, at carefully from both points of view before we actually decide upon it.

Mr. RAWLINSON

The real object is to see that there should be some taxing officer of some kind. There is, of course, the position in certain cases where certain things, such as expenses of returning officers, have to be taxed, and it seems to me that we have omitted that from the Bill. I hope the Home Secretary will deal with it in some form or other.

Amendment negatived.

Further Amendment made: In Subsection (2) after the word "officer" ["as such officer shall"], insert the words "other than sums paid to that officer in respect of his expenses under this Act."— [Sir G. Cave.]

Mr. NIELD

In the absence of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Enfield (Major Newman), in whose name the Amendment stands on the Paper, I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "where those expenses do not exceed the maximum amount' under a scale to be settled by the Treasury."

This is a matter which was the subject of the observations just made by the Home Secretary, who promised to consider the matter in relation to the scale of Treasury charges. The Clause as drawn will mean that the council concerned will only be reimbursed to the extent of half of the registration expenses if they do not exceed the Treasury scale. It is known from experience that the Treasury scale is notoriously inadequate, and it is not likely that this scale will be an exception to the rule. The policy of the Treasury has always been to pay as little as possible. The registration expenses may be perfectly reasonable and proper, and yet may exceed the scale. In those circumstances it would not be equitable for more than half of the expenses to fall on the rates. Expenses will vary according to the locality. In one area it may be possible to get printing done on terms which will not be possible in another area, and similarly other expenses which will fall under this scale might vary very considerably in accordance with the district in which they were incurred. A hard-and-fast scale prescribed by the Treasury may not, and would not, therefore, in all cases be satisfactory. It is in the hope of getting the Home Secretary to make the complete statement to which he referred incidentally just now that I move this Amendment, and I hope that something may be done to meet what may be a very serious charge upon the county and borough rates.

Sir G. CAVE

I think it would be impossible entirely to omit these words because we should then have no check at all on the amount of this expenditure. I think there ought to be a cheek on the amount of which the Treasury are going to pay half. On the other hand, I think there ought to be a check either by the local authority or some other authority on the amount to be charged to them. The object is that they should get a full half of whatever they pay. I think that point will be met by the Amendment we contemplate for the purpose of dealing with the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders). When that is on the Paper I think it will be evident that what I agree would be a great injustice—namely, to charge the local authority with more than half of the ultimate expenses—may be avoided.

Colonel SANDERS

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman will put down an Amendment on the Committee stage or on Report?

Sir G. CAVE

On Report

Mr. H. SAMUEL

Might I draw the Home Secretary's attention to the fact that on the Report stage no alteration can be made which would have the effect of imposing an increased charge on the Treasury 1 Perhaps his Amendment would not do that.

Sir G. CAVE

On the contrary, it would limit it.

Mr. DICKINSON

I am sorry to intervene here, but I cannot help thinking that it is a mistake to try to work this matter on a scale previously settled by the Treasury. What you really want is a revising authority—that is, an approving authority—after the expenditure has been incurred. As a matter of fact, it is not only economy we want—I quite agree that economy is a very important thing—but we want efficiency, and in this particular question of the first revision there will be a great deal of expenditure to be incurred in order to form a proper register. I do not know whether the authorities have really considered at all what the system will be, but the only system that is possible for the formation of a new register is a house-to-house canvass all over the country. That is a very expensive operation, and one of which many local authorities would fight shy. If the scale is settled beforehand, I think you will find it will be almost impossible to get the registration authorities to do the work properly. I think you want a regular system by which the Treasury shall pass the necessary expenditure. You have to trust somebody to do it, and to lay it down beforehand I believe will not be practicable. If possible, therefore, I should, like to leave out these words, and let the Home Secretary put in his words on the Report stage.

Mr. NIELD

I am quite content with the Home Secretary's explanation, and I would ask leave to withdraw my Amendment on the understanding that we have his Amendment on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. DICKINSON

There is one point that arises on the Clause. The proposal in it is that the whole of the expenditure shall be borne half by the State and half by the borough councils. Hitherto the expenses of registration have been borne equally by the borough councils and by the county councils?

Colonel SANDERS

The State has paid the revising barristers.

Mr. DICKINSON

Yes; the State has paid the revising barristers, but whatever the State has not paid has been divided between the borough councils and the county councils. The proposal now is to put the whole cost on the borough councils, and as the expenditure will undoubtedly be greater, at any rate at this first registration, I do not see the justice or the expediency of doing that. I do not know whether the Home Secretary's attention has been drawn to that point. I did not see it until I came to notice that one of the Acts repealed in the Schedule is the one which made this arrangement of the division between the counties and the boroughs. I just mention this, but I should like the Home Secretary to consider it, possibly before the Report stage, or he might, perhaps, put down a new Clause.

CLAUSE 14 (Special Provisions with Respect to Urban Districts and London) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKEB, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn"

Adjourned accordingly at One minute lifter Eight o'clock.