HC Deb 27 June 1917 vol 95 cc423-31

(1) Each Parliamentary borough and each Parliamentary county shall be a registration area, and there shall be a registration officer for each registration area.

4.0 P.M.

(2) Where the registration area is a Parliamentary county and is coterminous with, or wholly contained in, one administrative county, the clerk of the county council, and where the registration area is a Parliamentary borough and is coterminous with, or wholly contained in, one municipal borough, the town clerk of the borough shall be the registration officer for the area.

In any other case such clerk of the county council, or town clerk, shall be registration officer for the area as the Local Government Board may by Order direct, subject to any conditions which may be made by the Order as to the appointment of deputies for any part of the area.

(3) Any of the duties and powers of the registration officer may be performed and exercised by any deputy for the time being approved by the Local Government Board.

The CHAIRMAN

The first Amendment on the Paper is out of place; it ought to come at the end of the Clause, instead of at the beginning.

Sir C. SEELY

With regard to the Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Liverpool and three other Members, may I ask whether it will be considered by the right hon. Gentleman?

The CHAIRMAN

This Amendment, in the name of four hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Liverpool, provides that the town clerk, unless he is the registration officer, "shall be the deputy-registration officer in regard to the area of that borough."

Sir C. SEELY

That is the point.

The CHAIRMAN

The Amendment can be proposed at the end of the Clause, when we reach that point.

Mr. H. P. HARRIS

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), after the word "may," to insert the words, "in case of his absence from illness or any sufficient cause."

These important duties ought not to be performed by a deputy except in the case of illness, or for any sufficient cause. I think some limiting words are desirable.

Sir G. CAVE

It may well be that the registration officer is fully occupied with other duties, and I think there ought to be a general power to appoint a deputy, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir G. CAVE

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to add the words, "and the provisions of this Act shall apply to any such deputy so far as respects any duties or powers to be performed or exercised by him as it applies to the registration officer."

Amendment agreed to.

Sir G. CAVE

I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words, "In the event of any vacancy in the office of any clerk of the county council or town clerk who is a registration officer, or in the event of his incapacity to act, any acts authorised or required to be done by or with respect to the registration officer may be done by or with respect to any person temporarily appointed in that behalf by the chairman of the county council or the mayor, as the case may be."

Amendment agreed to.

Sir C. SEELY

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), at the end, after the words last inserted, to add the words: Provided that in every municipal borough the town clerk, unless he is the registration officer, shall, if he is willing to act, and subject to his being approved as aforesaid, be the deputy registration officer in regard to the area of that borough. May I suggest to the Home Secretary that he might accept the Amendment? I think in the case of some of the small boroughs there may be a certain amount of feeling between them and the county councils. The town clerk of the borough is fully competent to fulfil the duties of registration officer, and I should like to know from my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary whether he could not accept the Amendment.

Sir G. CAVE

Where it is a Parliamentary borough the town clerk, under the Bill, will be the registration officer, and in other cases where the clerk of the county council desires to fulfil his duties in the borough by deputy, in such cases the town clerk would be the natural person to act. But there may be cases where he does not desire to act, and I think it would be unfortunate to make it obligatory in all cases. There may be special cases where the clerk of the county council may desire to appoint someone else, although I do not think they are likely to occur where a deputy should be appointed.

Mr. GOLDSTONE

It seems to me that the inclusion of the words suggested would make it obligatory on the county council to appoint a deputy. The right hon. Gentleman assents to that. It would unnecessarily, in my view, increase the expenses of registration, and half the amount would be thrown on the Treasury. I hope the Home Secretary will not accept the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Sir C. HOBHOUSE

I understood from you, Sir, that the first Amendment on the Paper was to be put in at the end of the Clause.

The CHAIRMAN

Yes.

Sir C. HOBHOUSE

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3) to insert the words, "Every registration officer shall have within each constituency or electoral division a place for transacting official business, which shall be open daily. Provided that a divided borough for the purpose of this Section shall be deemed one constituency."

I do not advocate the exact words of the Amendment, but I think it should be made quite clear that there should be in any constituency a given place where the voters could get at the registration officer, and where they could make their application to be put upon the register. It may not be necessary to have words to this effect in the Bill—on that I do not offer any opinion—but if the words are not formally inserted in the Bill, I think a direction should be issued by the Local Government Board to the registration officer or to the town clerk, as the case may be, requiring that there should be in the constituency some office which would be convenient to the electors. It would be of considerable advantage if such a course could be followed.

Sir G. CAVE

I do not like to give any undertaking that such a direction will be issued in every case. These are business matters which are to be dealt with by business men. No doubt, in most cases, at the important time of the year when claims are made, the registration officer will find it right to have some office, or some representative, in the constituency, and I have no doubt that that would be the general and proper procedure. But there might be exceptional cases, and in any event it would not be right to have an office open daily in each constituency, in view of the fact that for a great part of the year there is practically no registration work at all. I think the matter might well be left as it is.

Mr. RUTHERFORD

I should like what has just been said by the Home Secretary translated into some kind of action. In the county of Lancashire there are thirty-two constituencies, and it would be exceedingly inconvenient for a man or a woman engaged in another part of the county to have to go to either Preston or Lancashire, perhaps forty or fifty miles away, or at any rate a considerable distance, to make inquiries on this subject. Of course, we are very largely in the dark, because we do not know whether the proportional representation system is going to become law, but I can imagine that in a large number of counties like Lancashire great inconvenience would be experienced if there were no office within reasonable distance in those very large electoral areas at which inquiries could be made, instead of the persons concerned having to travel forty or fifty miles in order to find out their true position. I think we should have an assurance that the point will be carefully considered, so that in any constituency persons may have the opportunity of making inquiries within a reasonable distance with respect to their vote. If the Home Secretary will give us that further assurance, so far as I am concerned I shall be satisfied; but if not, as the matter is one of great importance to the electors and the public generally, I think we ought to know a little more about it.

Sir FREDERICK BANBURY

I cannot see myself any great difficulty in this matter. As I understand, the registration officer will be the clerk to the council, or the clerk to the borough council, or the representative of the municipality, whatever it may be, and he will combine with his other functions the function of registration officer. If that is so, and I think it is so, he has the office already, and therefore what is to prevent his putting a notice on his door intimating that inquiries as to registration are to be made at that office?

Mr. RUTHERFORD

In many cases it might be thirty or forty miles away.

Sir F. BANBURY

It really does not matter. What is wanted is a place to which anybody can go or write—a place where inquiry can be made, namely, the registration office. There are very few places which would be fifty miles away—certainly not in Liverpool or in London, nor in a great number of the counties. The elector must take some little trouble, and if in a few cases the office was sixty miles away, the voter would still be in a better position if he knew that he could communicate by post—postage is cheap enough—by letter, or even by postcard, with that particular place, where hi would always be certain of getting an answer to his communication. Being a strong supporter of economy I should be very much against the setting up of offices all over the place with a special set of clerks and special people to be there regularly when undoubtedly, as the Home Secretary has said, on many days nobody would come at all. If this was going to be managed by a private person who had any business aptitude or common sense he would do as I suggest and put up a notice on the office used for other purposes that any inquiry as to registration would be answered there. That would cost nothing save the expense of putting the notice on the door. All that would be necessary would be for one of the clerks to receive the letters on this subject. In my own Constituency there was a notice put on the agent's door that he would answer any question about registration in the place where he was living. Something of that sort can easily be done in view of the fact that the registration officer is already employed by the local authorities and already has an office.

Sir J. SPEAR

I think this is a matter of very considerable importance, especially in a constituency like mine with 100 parishes. It is important that information should be readily supplied to voters as to the procedure to pursue in order to get their names on the register. At the same time I do not think the expense of offices open all the year round is necessary. After all, the information will be available at the hands of the political agents, and voters will naturally ask for information from the political agents of the party of which they happen to be a member. It is important that as registration time aproaches the registrar should be available in the principal town. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will adhere to his decision, which I think will secure efficiency with less expense.

Sir G. YOUNGER

We have in Sootland the exact system now proposed by the Bill to be applied in England. We have an assessor who does the whole of the registration work in every constituency, and there is not the least difficulty about the matter.

Sir F. BANBURY

I think my hon. Friend (Sir J. Spear) did not quite understand what I suggested. I was not recommending that there should be special offices open with a great staff who would practically have nothing to do during eight months of the year. I merely suggested that in the office which already exists there should be a little notice that inquiries would be answered there about registration. That is a perfectly simple thing to do. With regard to the suggestion about party agents I understood that one of the objects was to do away with the party agents. I do not believe myself you will ever succeed in doing that however good this Bill is, and I am not going to argue that question now. We were told that one of the reasons why Members supported this Bill was that it was going to do away with party agents, and yet my hon. Friend says that the party agents will be useful in giving information to the voters. Some hon. Members therefore will be deceived if party agents continue to flourish as much in the future as in the past.

Mr. RUTHERFORD

I do not think that the meaning of this Amendment has been quite understood, either by the Home Secretary or some other Members of the Committee. Under the old practice, overseers had to make the lists in every parish. Under this proposed procedure the only place where an authoritative list will be capable of being consulted will be at the office of the registration officer. I can see the greatest possible inconvenience being caused owing to distance and expense. All that we ask is that the Home Secretary should take these matters into consideration and see if the system is going to cause any of these difficulties, and if he finds that is so, to take some reasonable steps to meet that position. We do not want to stop the progress of the Bill, but we do want the importance of the subject and the convenience of the public generally to be taken into account.

Sir C. SEELY

I would press on the Home Secretary the importance of this question. You are taking away the registrars from each parish, and you substitute one registrar in the county town, and that may cause the very greatest inconvenience to many people and increase expense. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment, but I do ask him to consider very carefully the importance of having some arrangement for local people in each constituency. If my Amendment had been accepted with regard to the clerks of small boroughs for a very small payment, they could be induced to do the registration work, and the same thing might happen all over the district. There are some counties at present where, owing to the railway arrangement, you cannot get from particular parts to the county town and back on one day. I think it should be quite clearly understood, either in the Bill or some other manner, that there will be some place where a person can ascertain whether he has been put on the register, and, if he finds a mistake in the register, where he can go and see that that mistake is put right, and that he should have that opportunity within a reasonable distance of his own home.

Sir G. CAVE

I quite understand the position as I have been dealing with these matters all my life, and I think hon. Members are mixing up two different things. As regards seeing the voters' lists, those are made out and published in the manner prescribed. In the future, as in the past, they would be printed at the county office. With regard to claims and objections, which is, I think, the only point of substance, I think it would be generally a wise thing for the registration officer to have some place where people can go and make inquiries. But I think it would be a great mistake to lay down any hard and fast rule. I think the matter is one which we may leave to the common sense of the registration officer.

Sir C. HOBHOUSE

I do not attach any importance to the actual wording of the Amendment, which I daresay very much overstates the case, but I should like a more definite assurance that the right hon. Gentleman would ask the Local Government Board' to send instructions to the various registration officers that this should be their practice. I still hope when we come to the Report stage that the right hon. Gentleman will have some communication to make to us as to the Local Government Board doing this which would satisfy us.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Colonel SANDERS

May I ask for some further information as to who is to be allowed under Sub-section (3) to act as deputy to the registration officer. Those deputies may have very important duties to perform, and in fact almost the duties of the revising barrister. Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us the kind of person he has in his mind as appropriate for the registration officer to appoint to do this work, and whether it is necessary that he should be a person with some acquaintance of the law or simply a clerk to really do the work of the revising barrister.

Sir G. CAVE

The clerk of the county council would be very ill-advised if he did not appoint a man fitted to perform this work. I contemplate, for instance, that where necessary he would appoint a town clerk of a borough to do the work of the borough, and if he wanted a deputy for the county he would be likely to choose a deputy clerk of the peace or somebody with sufficient knowledge to enable him to carry out the duties.

Colonel SANDERS

Or a local solicitor.

Sir G. CAVE

That is for the clerk to say. He would have to be an experienced man or he would not be approved by the Local Government Board.

Colonel SANDERS

I want to point out that there will be in practice large areas where the clerk of the county council cannot possibly do the work of the county himself. In the short time allotted there will be considerable difficulty in finding in the area local people who will not have got some sort of political party associations. He will have to pick out, as the right hon. Gentleman said, perhaps the clerk of the local Petty Sessions. The Clerk of the Petty Sessions is, of course, usually a solicitor. I only want to try to bring home to my right hon. and learned Friend what my point is namely, that it will be very hard to find a local person to do this work who is quite free from any political associations. Local solicitors are so often mixed up in some way or other with the party organisations that in a big county it will be very hard to find a man to whom this work can be entrusted.

Question put, and agreed to.