§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order [19th February] for Committal of the Criminal Law Amendment Bill be read, and discharged; and that the Bill be committed to a Standing Committee."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]
§ Sir F. BANBURYWe were told a few moments ago that to-morrow some question of refreshments and other small Bills on the Paper would be taken. In view of this, I do not see why the usual practice 1868 of having such Bills as this dealt with in the House should not be followed. This measure is a very important one and there is a very strong feeling both for and against it, and a still stronger feeling for making amendments in it. I do not see under these circumstances why the Members of this House should have withdrawn from them the privilege of discussing in Committee this very important measure. I should not have ventured to raise any objection if there had been any evidence put forward in favour of this course, but the evidence I have had is to the contrary and I sincerely trust that this Motion will not be proceeded with. If it is, I shall certainly divide against it if I can get any support.
§ Mr. DILLONI strongly support the view which has been expressed by the right hon. Baronet, and he certainly shall not be prevented from going to a Division for want of a Teller. I strongly sympathise with the view he has put forward. This Bill is being sent to a Grand Committee on the ground that it is an unpleasant subject to discuss in the House of Commons. There is no doubt at all that it is a very unpleasant subject to discuss here, but I think it is a cowardly-thing to send this measure to a Grand Committee on the ground that it is not a pleasant subject to discuss. I protest against the course which has been adopted, because it is a Bill calculated to interfere, and perhaps to grievously and unjustly interfere, with the liberty of a most defenceless section of the population. I do not expect that there will be any sympathy in this House for a large section of those who will come under the provisions of this Bill, but because there is nobody to speak for them I think the House ought to be extremely slow about dealing with this question in the dark. If it goes before a Grand Committee there will be a difficulty in forming a quorum. I know this, because I have been urged to go upon the Committee myself, and I know there is a general dislike to act on that Committee. If the Committee is formed it will be a small one, and the Bill will be hustled1 through and treated as a very disagreeable subject. I say that in these matters, painful as they are, where it is proposed to place certain sections of the population under legislation of this kind—and it may affect a very great number of people—a grievous mistake may be made 1869 and shocking injustice may arise, and the most abominable forms of blackmail may be encouraged if proper precautions are not taken. I have seen this kind of thing working in the United States of America, and I say that legislation of this character is of the most dangerous kind, and you have always to keep in mind the danger of blackmail of the most atrocious kind arising under such Acts. I think it is a cowardly thing that we should not face this question after the Government has decided that it is a subject which must be proceeded with.
§ Mr. KINGI also wish to join in the protest against this Bill going to a Grand Committee, and I do so on different grounds. I have great sympathy with the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary to the Home Department, who will be taken away from their offices, where they are very much wanted every morning, and they will have to spend two, or perhaps three, days a week attending the Grand Committee, where progress will be very slow. I hope, for this reason, the Home Secretary will say a good word to the Leader of the House on behalf of my object. There is another reason for not passing this Motion. We were told when this Government was formed that there would be no dilatoriness or indecision, but the Government are beginning to show in little matters like this that they are ready to procrastinate and become dilatory. You will have a long Report stage, and you will spend a great many hours on the Grand Committee with speeches that would not be made in this House, and I can speak from experience on this point. Therefore, on the grounds of wishing for no dilatoriness or indecision, I ask the Government to withdraw this Motion.
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Bonar Law)It is quite obvious that there is no great principle involved here, so far as the Government are concerned. We have simply taken the course which, after some doubt, as the hon. Member has pointed out, we thought best suited to a Bill of this kind. It is quite true that the House, so far, has allowed the business to go through as rapidly as we could have had any reason to hope, and I could not recommend this change on the ground that we could not afford the time in the House of Commons; but if ever there were a subject which had better be discussed in Grand Committee rather than on the floor of this House, it is such a subject as that dealt with in this Bill. I think the speech of the hon. Member who last addressed the House (Mr. King) is itself the best answer to the two previous speakers. His ground of objection was that the subject would be too thoroughly thrashed out in Grand Committee, whereas the other two hon. Members thought that it would be better thrashed out in the House of Commons. I am inclined to think that the last hon. Member is right. Probably more time will be taken in Grand Committee than would be taken in the House itself, because, fortunately, the number who imitate the courage and eloquence of the hon. Member who spoke last is not very great. We have, however, come to the conclusion that this is the best method of dealing with the Bill. I think it quite right, if the Members of the House take a different view, that they should have the opportunity of expressing their opinions in the Lobby, but the reasons for and against are quite clearly before the House, and I hope that there will be no unnecessary discussion.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 91.
1871| Division No. 2.] | AYES. | [3.55 p.m. |
| Agnew, Sir George | Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling | Bridgeman, William Clive | Croft, Lieut.-Col. Henry Page |
| Archdale, Lieut. E. M. | Brunner, John F. L. | Currie, George W. |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Bull, Sir William James | Dairymple, Hon. H. H. |
| Aster, Hon. Waldorf | Burn, Colonel C. R. | Daiziel, Davison (Brixton) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Carllie, Sir Edward Hildred | Daiziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) | Carnegle, Lieut.-Col. D. G. | Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Cave, Rt. Hen. Sir George | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick | Denman, Hon. Richard D. |
| Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton) | Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) | Denniss, E. R. B. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Cochrane, Cecil Algernon | Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willougby N. |
| Bellairs, Commander C. W. | Collins, Sir W. (Derby) | Dixon, C. H. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B |
| Bird, Alfred | Cory, James H. (Cardiff) | Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward |
| Bewerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) | Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Reid, Rt. Hon. Sir George H |
| Fell, Arthur | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) | Maclean, Rt. Hon. Donald | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) | Macmaster, Donald | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Robinson, Sidney |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rowlands, James |
| Galbraith, Samuel | Macpherson, James Ian | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford | Magnus, Sir Philip | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Malcolm, Ian | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred | Mallalieu, Frederick William | Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) |
| Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) | Middlebrook, Sir William | Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks.) |
| Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William | Millar, James Duncan | Stewart, Gershom |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Thomas-Stanford, Charles |
| Hewart, Sir Gordon | Newman, John R. P. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hills, John Waller | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Wardie, George J. |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Horne, E. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Whiteley, Herbert J. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Partington, Oswald | Wilson Fox, Henry |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wilson, Lt.-Cl. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn, SW) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pennefather, De Fenblanque | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Perkins, Walter F. | Yate, Col. Charles Edward |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Peto, Basil Edward | Yeo, A. W. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten) | Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester) | |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Pratt, J. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Llcyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Primrose. |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Adamson, William | Hemmerde, Edward George | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Alden, Percy | Hogge, James Myles | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Anderson, W. C. | Holt, Richard Durning | Radford, Sir George Heynes |
| Arnold, Sydney | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Bentham, George Jackson | John, Edward Thomas | Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) |
| Blake, Sir Francis Douglas | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Bliss, Joseph | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Jowett, Frederick William | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Joyce, Michael | Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Keating, Matthew | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | King, Joseph | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickiade) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Clynes, John R. | Lundon, Thomas | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Cosgrave, James | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Weigall, William E. G. A. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Mooney, John J. | Whitty, Patrick Joseph |
| Doris, William | Morrell, Philip | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Field, William | Nolan, Joseph | Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Fitzpatrick John Lalor | Nugent, J. D. (College Green) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nuttall, Harry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhougton) |
| France, Gerald Ashburner | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Gilbert, J. D. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Yoxall, Sir Jomes Henry |
| Glanville, Harold James | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) | O'Leary, Daniel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Malley, William | Frederick Banbury and Mr. Dillon |
| Hackett, John | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Ordered, "That the Order [19th February] for Committal of the Criminal Law Amendment Bill be read, and discharged; and that the Bill be committed to a Standing Committee."