SUMMER TIME (IRELAND). (Hansard, 19 April 1917)

§ Mr. DILLON
I desire, in accordance with the notice which I gave at Question Time to-day, to raise the question of the application of the Summer Time Act to Ireland. The Chief Secretary, before the Easter Recess, in reply to a question that I put to him, said that during the Easter Recess he would make inquiries into this matter, and that he hoped that a good-humoured trial would be given to the new time scheme for Ireland, and that if it was found that the application of the Summer Time Act to Ireland caused any real and serious inconvenience, the Government would reconsider the matter. All that I forecasted has been more than justified by the result of the application of the Act to Ireland, where, I think it is not generally known in this House, the situation has been enormously aggravated by the application of Greenwich time since last summer. The Greenwich Time Act was applied to Ireland under most extraordinary circumstances. It was introduced here one day without any proper notice being given to the Members for Ireland, and it was met immediately by a very strenuous opposition. As soon as it became apparent that the majority of the people in Ireland were against it, the Government made up their minds to abandon the Bill, when certain Gentlemen, a very limited number of the Irish Members, who desired the application of Greenwich time to Ireland, blocked another Bill which was very much desired by the Irish party in connection with the reconstruction of the City of Dublin, and one of those Parliamentary bargains took place, and, after prolonged negotiations, the number of Irish Members who had blocked the Greenwich Time Bill were induced to withdraw their opposition, under the threat that if they did not do so the other Gentlemen would not let Dublin be reconstructed. Such a system of altering the time of a country without giving the people any opportunity of expressing their opinion was, in my opinion, an absolute outrage. I ventured at that time to warn the Government privately that by introducing Greenwich time to Ireland they would land themselves in a 1999 terrible difficulty when the time came to raise the question of the re-application of the Summer Time Act to Ireland. There was a good deal of discontent in the rural districts already, and not unnaturally, because the alteration of the time in Ireland affected them a great deal more than the alteration here affected the people of this country.
The meridian of time, even under the old system, passed through the City of Dublin, and we were all run on Dublin time. We in the West of Ireland are twenty minutes behind Dublin time. In the western quarter of Ireland and in the South-West of Ireland, under this new system the clock is ahead of the sun by an hour and three quarters instead of an hour. Even in Dublin it is ahead of the clock, by practically an hour and twenty-seven minutes. The result is that the inconvenience and annoyance that was created even by the Summer Time Bill of last year has been enormously aggravated, and the whole rural world is in revolt against it. The Chief Secretary knows perfectly well that, practically speaking, ninety-nine out of every 100 of the rural population of Ireland are up against summer time, and all the more bitterly against it since it has come on the top of Greenwich time. After all, Ireland is pre-eminently an agricultural country. There are special circumstances this year which entitle it to special consideration. The Chief Secretary has pointed out that the Irish people have responded splendidly to the appeal to increase agriculture and tillage. They have acquitted themselves in the most admirable fashion. They are considerably hampered and annoyed by the application of this summer time. I have been deluged with letters and resolutions of public bodies from all parts of the country and by letters from farmers, protesting in the most violent way against the inconvenience and, as they say, against the loss which has been inflicted upon them by this Summer Time Bill. The details have been put before the Chief Secretary.
But there are one or two points to which I wish to refer, because they are to a certain extent fresh. The first of these points is the extremely ludicrous position that has arisen. In most parts of the country the Ecclesiastical authorities have decided that they would not at all recognise the new time. The church clocks are now on the old time, and they are the guide of the people all around. Trade 2000 is affected by it, for the banks are closed when the people get in to do their business. Everything is upside down. The country goes on one time, and when the people go into the towns they are late. The confusion is even of a more ludicrous character in some districts. One newspaper has told us of a town where the convent bell was rung at twelve o'clock Greenwich time, and the parish church bell was rung according to the Irish time, the result being that the spiritual exercises of the people were turned upside down, and some people who were extremely particular had to say the Angelus twice. Really, the situation has been perfectly ludicrous, and almost intolerable.
The other point I wish to deal with is this. There is no doubt, and it was frankly admitted that one of the difficulties the Government had to deal with and which they allege as a reason for not acceding at once to our request was that there is a certain amount of difference of opinion in Ireland on this subject. There is. That is quite admitted. In the cities and towns summer time last year was quite popular. I do not think it is so popular now on account of the Greenwich time. Summer time last year in the towns and cities and even in small country towns was quite popular. People liked it. But Greenwich time has spoilt that to a considerable extent. There is no doubt, however, that still in the towns and cities there is a considerable body of people who approve of summer time. I have been greatly surprised in receiving a considerable number of letters during the last two days from workers in the towns appealing to me to get this Bill repealed and summer time removed from Ireland. I received from Castlewellin, a town which, as the Chief Secretary knows, is a milling town in the north of Ireland, a letter from a worker in the mills, in which he said it was intolerable. I have not the letter with me, but so far as I recollect it, he said that the young people working In the mills had to be there at six o'clock; and now, under the new time, they had to get out of bed at a quarter past four by the sun in order to get to the mill at the same time. That is really outrageous. A quarter past four is what he stated, because the mill time under the new summer time in Ireland started at 4.30 by the sun. Although I was informed and led to believe that the City of Belfast was entirely in favour of summer time, I received 2001 to-day a letter from a gentleman who describes himself as the secretary of the Workers' Union, a body of which the Vice-President is Mr. Tom Mann—it is an association spread over the three countries —and the general secretary is Mr. Charles Duncan, a Member of this House. It says: Dear Sir—The members of the above branch of the Workers' Union respectfully request you to protest on their behalf against the application of the Daylight Saving Bill to Ireland, as they find it inflicts hardship on them. A good many working men in Dublin have taken the same view, and I am surprised, because I thought they were in favour of it. Shop assistants are in favour of it because it lets them out on a summer afternoon, and it is quite natural that they should be in favour of it. I am, however, greatly surprised to find that in the cities and towns a percentage of the working classes are against the Bill. The third class which is protesting violently against the Bill are the teachers and managers of schools. I have had several letters saying that it inflicts the gravest hardship on the children, who are compelled to go to school at these unreasonable hours. I believe a change has been made in a good many of the schools, and that a good deal of dispute has arisen as to the hour at which the rolls are to be called between the managers and the Board of Education, which, I believe, approves of the Summer Time Bill.
My own view is, that at all events for this year, until we reconsider the whole question of the Greenwich time, the Government ought to withdraw by an Act of Parliament, which I believe it is necessary to do, this provision from Ireland, in view of the great strain upon the agricultural community and the almost universal demand from the agriculturists of Ireland, that it should be withdrawn; and then some investigation could be entered into before next year to see whether anything could be done on this whole question. I am convinced of one thing, that if you persist in applying Greenwich time to Ireland, it will be intolerable to continue this in Ireland. I doubt very much whether in any case the agriculturists will consent to the application of summer time, but I am quite certain that if you persist in Greenwich time the whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. It was long thought to be good for farmers to put the clock an hour in advance in summer, but in a damp climate like that of Ireland to put the clock an 2002 hour and forty minutes ahead is really a reductio ad absurdum. I really ask the right hon. Gentleman to give some assurance to the people of Ireland with regard to this matter.

§ The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Duke)
The real question now is whether, in view of what is admittedly a greatly divided state of opinion in Ireland, the time is proper for a legislative measure which would certainly produce some new discrepancy in Ireland, and not only in Ireland, but in the United Kingdom. It is no doubt a cause of some resentment-in Ireland that the change from the old Dublin time to Greenwich time should have been followed by what is called Summer Time, or Daylight Saving, as it was called by the late Mr. Willett, who was, I will not say its inventor, but a public-spirited citizen who pressed it upon this country, I think, to the common satisfaction and advantage of all of us on this side of the Channel. I cannot help thinking that this question would not have arisen in anything like such an acute form if the situation had not been exaggerated a bit by the coincidence of the two changes. I am very much inclined to think that the adoption of summer time would have been welcomed in Ireland after a little experience of it, just as it has been welcomed in this country after one season's experience. I doubt if there is anybody in this country at the present time who does not delight in the services of an hour added to the lighter part of the day. I think that it was an Irish poet who gave us the sound advice: For the best of all ways To lengthen our days Is to steal a few hours from the night.

§ Mr. DILLON
Yes; but he stole them in a totally different way.

§ Mr. DUKE
We have not the same convivial spirit to devote those hours to the purposes to which I suppose the poet expected them to be devoted. The change from ordinary summer time is not a matter which has caused any extreme difficulty to us. Summer time was introduced last year, and when I took office it was in operation without any sort of complaint so far as I have heard and during the period of last autumn Greenwich time was in operation in the West and South of Ireland when harvesting operations, which were late, were in active progress.

§ Mr. KILBRIDE
It will be later this year.

§ Mr. DUKE
That, unfortunately, is likely to be the case. At that time I did not hear a single complaint about the change of time. I was then the person to whom it would be proper to address any complaint, but I did not receive any at that time. In that state of the case the question came to be considered of applying summer time again under the Act of Parliament, which provides for its application. Opinion in Ireland was very much divided. Urban opinion was strongly in favour of the change of time. The workmen were strongly in favour of it, but the employers in the country were opposed to it. The commercial classes were also in favour of it, while the railway management unanimously pressed upon the Government in the strongest possible way to introduce a new discrepancy in time would inflict a substantial injury on business people. It so happened that the Act which at first provided summer time provided for its renewal in subsequent years, and for this year in terms which did not provide for the renewal in Ireland except by an Order in Council which applied to the United Kingdom.
The demand that was made that the Order in Council should not be issued, or should not be issued in the only form in which it could be authoritative, was an attempt which would have prevented Great Britain from having summer time at all, although the people of Great Britain, by an overwhelming majority, were in favour of it. It was welcomed by the overwhelming majority in this country. There can be no doubt that there would have been much stronger resentment if the Government had refused to issue the Order in Council when it was issued than there was now. I regret very much that the feeling which exists has grown up, and to some extent stimulated, in Ireland. I think there has been an exaggeration of the difficulties caused by the discrepancy of time, so far as the agricultural classes in Ireland are concerned. Anybody who has any acquaintance with the subject knows there are conditions affecting Irish agriculture which make this an important question not to be lightly dismissed. I regard it in that spirit, but there cannot be any reason or sound sense why the bells of two chapels in the same town should be rung at an hour's interval. The same religious and social considerations exist, and there are no moral considerations involved, because, after 2004 all, the time at which the clock works is not fixed by any sort of law. There is this strong feeling, and it is based on the fact that farmers are finding a practical difficulty in getting their workmen to recognise the change. If it were a matter of Administrative Order, it might be worthy of consideration whether the application of Greenwich time to Ireland should be continued. It has to be a matter of consideration whether a new discrepancy ought to be introduced. There are those strong differences of opinion to which I have referred. The hon. Member says, and I take note of what he has told me on this subject, that opinion is growing more strongly against the change.

§ Mr. KILBRIDE
In the towns, too.

§ Mr. DUKE
Inconvenient as it is, to my mind, that there should be two standards of time between two countries so closely bound together by material interests as this country and the adjoining island, if there were anything like unanimity of opinion I should be compelled to advise my colleagues that effect ought to be given to that unanimity, but there is no unanimity of opinion, and when there is no unanimity of opinion and nothing like a consensus of opinion, no one who has had any experience of legislative action would rush in to decide against one side or the other. I have taken and I shall continue to take every step I can to ascertain what is the settled opinion of the Irish people about this matter, what are the practical considerations, and how the new time is being found to work. I said in answer to a question that I thought, if a fair and good-tempered trial were given, probably summer time could be made to work. I cannot conceive how it could fail to be made to work if the people generally desired it or how it could affect a man's day's industry, whether the clock says six, seven, eight or nine o'clock when he begins.

§ Mr. KILBRIDE
Oh, yes! You put a premium on his extra time in the evening.

§ Mr. DUKE
The hon. Member says that we are going to have wages fixed in Ireland by legislative means, and that it may deal with hours as well as the-amount.

§ Mr. LUNDON
The best thing you can do is to become a farmer for six weeks, then you would know the difference.

§ Mr. DUKE
I say that this is a matter which shall be closely watched. I will take what means I can to ascertain what is the settled opinion of Irishmen engaged in practical business, acting without resentment or pique or any cause of the kind, but really because their interests are affected; and, if I come to the conclusion before the material time arrives that some action ought to be taken, then I shall submit the matter to my colleagues in His Majesty's Government in order that what is necessary may be done.

§ Mr. KILBRIDE
The right hon. Gentleman has just said that he does not think there would be any difficulty if there were good intention, in settling this matter. He said that he did not see any difficulty whether a man came at eight, nine, or ten o'clock in the morning, as the number of his working hours would be the same, and if the matter were approached in an amicable spirit he did not see why there should be any difficulty about an arrangement. The right hon. Gentleman has apparently forgotten the very important fact, seeing that you are fixing wages, that you put a premium on evening work. If I were an agricultural labourer, I do not think that I would be inclined to consent to any change in the present time, because the most important hours of the 2006 day to a farmer once the harvest begins, whether it is the hay or the corn harvest, are the late hours of the afternoon.