27. Mr. HAZLETONasked whether the figure of 3,600,000 given by the senior Member for Trinity College as being the number of men in Great Britain of military age who have been exempted from military service is an official figure?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAs 1 informed the hon. Member on the 24th instant, the exact number of exemptions varies from day to day. I would rather give no figures until the discussion on man-power that has been promised by the Prime Minister.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGENo, I cannot.
§ 30. Commander WEDGWOODasked the Secretary for War whether, in view of the virtual failure of all plans for substitution, he will now contemplate taking all men up to twenty-two, extending the age year by year as may be found necessary and leaving industry to readjust itself by natural means?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAs the present scheme of substitution has only recently come into operation, I think the hon. Member will agree that it is too early to call it a failure.
§ Commander WEDGWOODIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that recruiting officers throughout the country have found it absolutely impossible to get the Ministry of Munitions or the War Office to work together on this question, so as to get a satisfactory scheme of substitution? If he has not heard that, will he have inquiries made?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI can assure my hon. Friend that the War Office are fully alive to the difficulties. We are doing our very best to adjust matters.
Colonel GRIFFITHSWould it not simplify matters and ease the work of the War Office, if the suggestion in this question were adopted?
§ Mr. PRINGLEHave any substitutes in fact been found up to the present time?
§ 37. Mr. ANDERSONasked what arrangements are being made in respect of men now in Categories B and C who are to act as substitutes for fitter men now in industry and agriculture, but about to be drafted into the Army; whether the men returned from the Army to farmers and other private employers will have any voice as to their wages and conditions; and what measure of industrial freedom these returned workmen will enjoy, seeing that they are to be at the service of private employers concerned for their private gain?
§ Mr. FORSTERMen who are placed as substitutes will be in a position, so far as industrial freedom is concerned, similar to that of men who hold conditional exemption from tribunals on occupational grounds, unless they have entered into a civil contract or have enrolled as Army Reserve munition workers. Conditions and wages are made quite clear to men before they undertake work as substitutes.
§ Mr. ANDERSONIs the hon. Member aware that the military people in various parts of the country are continually laying it down in speeches that the employers will have special power over these men, and that if they misbehave in any way or? displease the employers they will be at once thrown back into the Army?
§ Mr. FORSTERNo. As I explained last week to the hon. Gentleman, there is no such thing contemplated by the military authorities; and if anybody says so he is making a very grave mistake.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIt is not what is contemplated, but what is actually done that we are complaining of.
§ Mr. FORSTERI am not aware of a single case in which it has been done.
§ Mr. ANDERSONIs the hon. Gentleman aware that Major Bassingham last week at Montgomery Appeal—
§ Mr. SPEAKERHow can the hon. Member be aware of these things? Hon. Members must really exercise some control.
§ 38. Mr. ANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the refusal of the Appeal Medical Board to examine a man passed by the Hounslow Board for general service, but certified by a local practitioner to be absolutely useless for the Army; whether he is aware that the Staines Tribunal, of which Sir Edward Clarke is president, have granted the man temporary exemption, and have announced that the exemption will be continually repeated until the man obtains a medical re-examination; and whether he will inquire into the action of the Appeal Medical Board in this case?
§ Mr. FORSTERThis case is down for hearing at the Guildhall on 7th November before the Appeal Tribunal, and it is not possible, therefore, to say anything further on the subject at present.
§ 39. Mr. ANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the inquest at Stoke Newington on George C. Gorday, a private in the Army Service Corps, who was passed at the beginning of June for general service; whether he is aware that medical examination after death revealed that the man had no kidney on the left side and that the right one was extensively diseased; that on visiting Bethnal 1507 Green Military Hospital a day or two before his death he was given some pills and told to have his teeth seen to; that the jury found that death was due to acute kidney disease and that his condition should have been discovered when he "was examined for the Army; and whether steps "will be taken to provide a thorough medical examination and to prevent the recruitment of unfit men?
§ Mr. FORSTERI am calling for a report on this case.
§ 42. Mr. WINGasked whether, if an attested or an unattested man is called up for service and he was over forty-one years of age on 24th June, 1916, he is exempt from service?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAn unattested married man or an unattested man deemed to be married who came within the operation of the Military Service Act, 1916 (Session 2) on the date of the passing of the Act (25th May), is not liable to be called up for service if he had attained the age of forty-one years before the 24th June (the appointed day). The unattested married man and the unattested man who is deemed to be married who did not come within the operation of the Military Service Act 1916 (Session 2), on the 25th May, is not liable to be called up for service if he had attained the age of forty-one years? within thirty days of his coming within the operation of the above—mentioned Act. Similarly the attested married man and the attested man who is deemed to be married, who if he had been unattested would not have become liable under the Military Service Act, 1916 (Session 2), will on production to the recruiting officer of proof of age be relegated to the Reserve.
§ Mr. THOMASDoes that mean that the man who is forty-one, when he is called up, is exempted from service in accordance with the statement of the hon. Gentleman's predecessor?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThat is not the answer.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIs security given to the man in that position that he may not be called up at any time?
51. Colonel GRIFFITHSasked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to make any statement with regard to the 1508 question of man-power; and if he can state whether it is the intention of the Government to make all men up to the age of twenty-five, physically fit, join the Colours before raising the age limit?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Bonar Law)The Man-Power Board are procuring returns from the various Government Departments in respect of the men employed up to twenty-six years of age, but the returns are not yet sufficiently complete to enable any conclusion to be formed.
§ Commander WEDGWOODWill there be inquiry as to first-grade clerks and second division clerks?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI understand the inquiry will include everyone available for military service.
§ 57. Major NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to straighten out the present recruiting tangle and remove anomalies and hardships by the introduction of a Military Service (No. 3) Bill?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWNo, Sir, there is no intention at present to introduce such a Bill.
59. Colonel GRIFFITHSasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for a day this or next week to deal with the question of Man-Power?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWFacilities will certainly be given for such a discussion, but I am afraid I cannot yet name a definite date.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI hope it will be soon, but the delay has been caused by the Man-Power Board having been so busy in making new arrangements that have been found necessary
60. Colonel GRIFFITHSasked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to state when the Report of the Man-Power Committee will be submitted to this House?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWThe Man-Power Board was set up for the purpose of deciding differences of opinion as to the distribution of labour arising between Government Departments, and it is, therefore, improbable that the Board will issue any public Report, especially as many of 1509 the facts involved are highly confidential and could not be published, but the Board will publish instructions from time to time when necessary for carrying its decisions into effect, as was done in the case of the Order of 29th September, 1916.
Colonel GRIFFITHSBefore a day is given for the discussion of man-power, will there be anything issued by the Man-Power Board for the guidance of Members of the House?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI cannot at present indicate anything that could usefully be published, but the matter will be considered?
§ Mr. PRINGLEWill the right hon. Gentleman consider the making of a Return of the number of men of military age in various employments—munitions, for instance?
§ 84. Mr. MORRELLasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that from the time of the passing of the Military Service Acts until the present month the Government have consistently stated that they would respect the pledge given in this House that men over forty would not be called up; if he is aware that on the 16th February Lord Derby wrote, through his secretary, Colonel Henderson, that when a man reaches his forty-first birthday he automatically becomes ineligible for military service; that in a printed leaflet, No. 61, published with the approval of the War Office, it was stated that a man's age is reckoned from the present not from the past, therefore a man who was forty-one yesterday is not liable to be called up to-day; and whether, in view of these facts, he will extend the time for making applications to tribunals in all cases of this kind so as to mitigate, as far as possible, the special hardship that will be caused by the recent Order?
§ 92. Mr. GEORGE TERRELLasked the Secretary of State for War if he can give any estimate of the number of men who would be available for the Army if the age limit was increased to forty-two years?
§ 98. Mr. THOMASasked the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of the War Office to call up for military service men who have passed their forty-first birthday before receiving the calling—up notice from the recruiting officer; and, if so, whether he will say on 1510 or before what date an attested man must have attained his forty-first birthday in order not to be liable to be called up?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI have already made a general statement on this matter, and to that I have nothing at present to add. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already promised a day for the discussion of the supply of men for the Armies in the Field, and I do not think any useful purpose would be served by its discussion in the meantime by means of questions and answers. My hon. Friends will, moreover, have seen since they put down their questions the official statement published in the Press on the 28th instant.
§ Mr. MORRELLCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any precedent for so gross and deliberate a violation of the pledge as in this case?
§ Mr. PRINGLEOh, yes, there is.
§ Mr. TERRELLThe right hon. Gentleman says that he has answered No. 92. May I ask whether he can really give an answer to that question which asks what would be the number of men available if the age limit were raised to forty-two?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe answer is that I do not think it would be desirable to give this information until the debate in the House. I gave exactly the same answer to another hon. Member.
§ Mr. THOMASWill the right hon. Gentleman guarantee that in the interval before the debate on this question, the pledge to these men will not be broken?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe War Office have issued a circular on the subject, as I have explained to the House.
§ Mr. PRINGLEAnd which is in violation of the pledge.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEIt is not.
6. Sir H. DALZIELasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of employing men over military age in working the antiaircraft guns in this country, and thus release for active service abroad the large number of young officers and men at present engaged on this work?
§ Mr. FORSTERMen over military age are not suitable for anti—aircraft work which is performed mostly at night and requires considerable activity. The policy 1511 is to employ men not fit for general service as far as possible, provided sufficient men with the necessary physical qualifications can be obtained.
Sir H. DALZIELIs it not the case that there is a great number of young men, not necessarily acquainted with the machinery, who are associated with this work?
97. Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that the majority of men in Categories C2 and C3 are not likely to be required for the Army, but that the uncertainty hanging over them all seriously handicaps them in ordinary business operations, whether he can give a larger measure of security to the majority of them by saying that in the first instance only those who are unmarried or below a certain age will be called up, and that he anticipates that this will satisfy all Army requirements?
§ Mr. FORSTERI am afraid that, in view of the exigencies of the military situation. I am not able to give any such general assurance as the hon. Member suggests.
Mr. SCOTTIs the hon. Gentleman aware that he has previously told me that these men are very unlikely to be called up, but that a certain proportion will be. As a proportion are to be called up, there is a paralysing uncertainty over all the rest which is destructive to business enterprise. In view of that fact, can he adopt any measure whatever to give these men the maximum possible security?
§ Mr. FORSTERI sympathise with these men in the difficulty in which they are placed. The matter has been very carefully considered, and I am afraid I cannot give the general undertaking for which my hon. Friend asks.
Mr. SCOTTSeeing that only a small proportion are to be called up, can the hon. Gentleman now select that proportion, and say, "These men will be called up first," thereby giving security to the others?
§ Mr. FORSTERI am afraid not. I should have been glad to do that if I could. My hon. Friend suggested it last week. We looked into it, to see if it could be done, but I am afraid it is impossible.
§ Mr. SNOWDENIs the hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Derby has already given a pledge that the men in Class C 3, sedentary work, will not be called up?
§ Mr. FORSTERI am not aware of that at all.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI have it in my possession.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIf there is a declaration of intention, will that give security to anybody?
§ Mr. FORSTERI am afraid I cannot give a declaration of security.