§ 95. Mr. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state why grocers are permitted to decline to sell sugar to their customers unless the customers purchase other groceries at the same time; whether he is aware that the effect of this system is to force customers in many cases to deal with a grocer he does not desire to deal with, and in some cases to purchase groceries he does not require in order to obtain sugar; and whether, in view of the hardship and unfairness of this system, especially to the poorer classes, he will give directions that grocers who adopt this system are not to be supplied with Government-owned or Government-controlled sugar?
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. McKenna)I dealt fully with this question on the 12th October in answer to a question by the hon. Member for the Ludlow Division, and I am sending the hon. and learned Member a copy of my reply.
§ Mr. BUTCHERHas the right hon. Gentleman seriously considered the desirability of stopping this practice, which presses so very hardly upon the poorer classes?
§ Mr. McKENNAI am advised, and I think examination of the question shows, that the pressure upon the poorer classes would be much harder if there were no such system. There is undoubtedly a greater demand for sugar than can be supplied, and if the well-to-do who had the means at command were enabled to buy sugar freely all the early days of the week there would be no sugar left in the shops on Saturday.
§ Mr. BUTCHERCould not the right hon. Gentleman divert some of the sugar which is now used in producing luxuries towards a supply for the purposes of the War?
§ Mr. McKENNAThat does not arise out of the question. If the hon. Member will put it down I will answer it.
§ Colonel CROFTIs this question of scarcity the chief thing which influences the right hon. Gentleman, and is it not the fact that a very large amount of sugar is being used in cocoa and chocolate which is being exported to neutral countries and possibly to our enemies?
§ Mr. MCKENNANo, Sir, I do not think that is so. If the hon. Gentleman will be so good as to put the question down, I will be able to answer more fully.
Colonel GRIFFITHSWill the question of the sale of sugar and the disposal thereof go before the Committee now sitting to deal with the question of food supplies?
§ Mr. MCKENNAI must have notice of that question. I am not familiar with the terms of reference.
§ 97. Colonel CROFTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any changes have been made in the constitution of the Sugar Commission; and what representatives of the sugar industry are included on the Commission?
§ Mr. MCKENNAAs I announced on the 29th May last, Lord Lucas and Sir George Barnes have retired from the Sugar Commission, and Mr. H. Fountain, of the Board of Trade, has been constituted a member. Sir Robert Park Lyle and Sir William Capel Slaughter are both engaged in the sugar industry.
§ 98. Colonel CROFTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Mr. Julius Runge is still the Government expert on the Sugar Commission; whether he is remunerated, and, if so, to what the remuneration amounts; and whether it is paid as commission or otherwise?
§ Mr. MCKENNAMr. Julius Runge is the business manager of the Sugar Commission, but not a member of the Commission. He receives a salary of £l,500 a year and no other remuneration.
§ 99. Colonel CROFTasked if Mr. Julius Runge is a British-born subject?
§ Mr. MCKENNAThe answer is in the affirmative.
§ Colonel CROFTMay I ask if the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the fact that a gentleman of a precisely similar name was naturalised in this country; and whether he will consider that question, owing to the undesirability of having a gentleman purchasing the whole of the sugar, as expert purchaser, who is a German subject?
§ Mr. MCKENNAI have already answered the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this Mr. Julius Runge is a natural-born British subject. Whether there is anybody else of the same name, who was 370 born in Germany and naturalised, I am quite unable to say. If that be so, he is not this Mr. Julius Runge.
§ 100. Mr. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the principles on which the Royal Sugar Commission acted during the year 1915 and the first half of 1916, and on which they are now acting, in distributing supplies of Government-owned and Government-controlled sugar to wholesale dealers and retail dealers and to manufacturers who use large amounts of sugar in making jams, confectionery, chocolate, and similar goods?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe principle of distribution followed by the Sugar Commission has always been to keep the trade, so far as was possible, in its usual channels, and to divide the supplies in the same ratio as prevailed in normal times. This principle has been applied equally to all the classes of trade referred to, except that in the case of fruit preservers special facilities have been granted for the obtaining of extra supplies to enable full advantage to be taken of the home-grown fruit crop.
§ Mr. BUTCHERHas any Paper been issued as to the mode in which the supply is regulated?
§ Mr. McKENNAI would require notice of that question.
§ Mr. LOUGHIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the wholesale houses are making conditions that other goods should be purchased if they supply sugar, and does the Commission allow that?
§ Mr. McKENNAThat does not arise out of this question.
§ Mr. FLAVINHow is the price of sugar regulated in Ireland? Do the maximum and minimum prices in England prevail in Ireland plus carriage?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe maximum prices prevail.
§ Mr. FLAVINPlus carriage?
§ 102 and 103. Mr. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he will state what proportion of the sugar supplied in 1915 to manufacturers of jam and other sugared goods is being made available for them this year; and what proportion of the sugar used by private persons in 1915 in preserving fruit will be available for their use for that purpose this year; and (2) whether he is aware that 371 quantities of fruit in the hands of private persons are rotting and going to waste for want of sugar for preserving, and whether he will alter the mode of distribution of Government-owned and Government-controlled sugar so as to enable private persons to purchase a reasonable amount of sugar for preserving fruit and thereby to produce a cheap and valuable form of food?
§ Mr. McKENNAManufacturers of jam are being allotted the amount of sugar necessary to enable them to preserve all the home-grown fruit taken by them, and certain special arrangements have been made with jam contractors to the War Office. Otherwise all manufacturers are subject to the general restriction as regards sugar supplies which the Sugar Commission have been obliged to impose in the national interest I fear it is not administratively possible to create the machinery necessary to extend to private individuals the special arrangements made with manufacturers for preserving homegrown fruit, and I cannot say what relation in quantity the sugar supplies issued this year to the grocery trade will bear to those so issued in 1915. They are, however, not likely to exceed 75 per cent., and it is quite possible that they will not reach that amount.
§ Mr. BUTCHERWill the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of the question, namely, what proportion of the sugar used by private persons in 1915 in preserving fruit will be available for their use for that purpose this year?
§ Mr. McKENNAI reply we are unable to make any arrangement for the supply of sugar for preserving fruit by private individuals.
§ Colonel CROFTMay I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will arrange for a day for the discussion of the whole of this sugar question, which is giving the greatest anxiety to a great number of people?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe settlement of the question of giving a day for discussion does not rest with me-