HC Deb 10 October 1916 vol 86 cc76-82

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

Resolutions proposed,

I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1915, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  1. (a) That the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £52,284,867 14s. 9d.;
  2. (b) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £533,005 7s. 2d.;
  3. (c) That, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 191,491 9 3
Total Deficits 51,943,353 16 10
Net Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £51,751,862 7 7

And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present Session (House of Commons Paper, No. 108, of 1916) a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1914–15, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £532,905 7s. 2d.

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of the said total surpluses on certain Grants or Navy Services to make good part of the deficit of Vote 1.

1. Resolved, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Rea.]

SCHEDULE
Number of Vote. Navy Services, 1914–15. Votes. Differences between Exchequer Grants and Net Expenditure.
Surpluses. Deficits.
£ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines — 4,837,329 14 2
2 Victualling and Clothing for the Navy — 4,319,627 0 10
3 Medical Establishments and Services — 144,489 5 11
4 Civilians employed on Meet Services — 61,676 12 8
5 Educational Services 13,234 7 10 —
6 Scientific Services — 22,390 5 1
7 Royal Naval Reserves 43,116 3 5 —
8 Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.: —
I. Personnel
II. Matériel
III. Contract Work 42,361,999 1 7
9 Naval Armaments
10 Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad
11 Miscellaneous Effective Services
12 Admiralty Office — 99,667 0 8
13 Half Pay and Retired Pay 125,655 1 6 —
14 Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances — 68,259 6 4
15 Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities 9,485 16 6 —
— Amount written off as irrecoverable — 27,915 9 7
Total 191,491 9 3 51,943,353 16 10
Add Excess Vote 100 0 0 —
Add Surplus Receipts not appropriated by Parliament — 100 0 0
191,591 9 3 51,943,453 16 10
Net Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £51,751,862 7 7 "

II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1915, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  1. (a) That the aggregate expenditure on Army Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £215,106,538 19s. 10d.;
  2. (b) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Army Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £3,238,997 3s. 11d.;
  3. (c) That, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 830,774 5 1
Total Deficit 212,698,316 1 0
Net Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £211,867,541 15 11

And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present Session (House of Commons Paper, No. 106, of 1916) a further sum of £10 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1914–15, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £3,238,987 3s. 11d.

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services to make good part of the deficit on Vote 1.

SCHEDULE.
Number of Vote. Army Services, 1914–15. Votes. Differences between Exchequer Grants and Net Expenditure.
Surpluses. Deficits.
£ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, etc., of the Army — 31,614,717 18 4
2 Medical Establishment: Pay, etc. — 1,572,451 16 7
3 Special Reserve 301,992 10 6 —
4 Territorial Forces 481,433 10 7 —
5 Establishments for Military Education — 49,966 7 2
6 Quartering, Transport, and Remounts — 50,981,243 11 3
7 Supplies and Clothing — 81,715,619 6 10
8 Ordnance Department Establishments and General Stores — 16,585,258 11 8
9 Armaments, Engineer Stores, and Aviation — 18,700,241 15 1
10 Works and Buildings — 10,908,095 9 11
11 Miscellaneous Effective Services — 349,229 13 8
12 War Office — 126,853 17 2
13 Half Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers, etc. 81,428 7 11
14 Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Men, etc. 45,655 2 10 —
15 Civil Superannuation, Compensation and Gratuities 1,693 1 2
— Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned — 13,209 5 5
Total 830,774 5 1 212,698,316 1 0
Add Excess Vote 10 0 0 —
"Surplus Receipts not appropriated by Parliament — 10 0 0
830,784 5 1 212,698,326 1 0
Net Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £211,867,541 15 11 "

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Rea.]

Mr. WATT

Are we to have any explanation from the Admiralty?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY: (Dr. Macnamara)

We are here dealing with the Navy Appropriation Account for 1914–15, and the House knows that during the course of each financial year we can seek Treasury sanction to apply the underspending on any particular Vote to balance the overspending on any other, always provided that the aggregate expenditure in any year is not made to exceed the aggregate sums appropriated for the Service. Such temporary sanction in this particular case, 1914–15, was given in the Treasury Minute of the 12th April. 1915, and Parliamentary sanction is finally given in Section 5 of the Appropriation Act. In this case Parliament really does more in fact. It gives an endorsement to a sanction already given by passing Votes of Credit to the use of moneys from the Vote of Credit in excess of the aggregate appropriated for Naval Services in the Estimates of 1914–15. I may say that the procedure regulating the issues from the Vote of Credit for 1914–15 is detailed in Treasury Minutes of 20th August, 1914, and 22nd November, 1915. They have been circulated as House of Commons Papers, Nos. 458 of 1914, and 392 of 1915. So far as this 1914–15 account is concerned, we showed underspendings on four Votes—5, 7, 13, and 15. Those amounted to £191,491 9s. 3d. We showed overspendings in all the other Votes outstanding as set forth in the Resolution, of £51,943,353 16s. 10d. Further, in the 1914–15 Estimate we estimated to receive £2,023,261 Appropriations-in-Aid. In point of fact we received during the course of that year £533,005 7s. 2d. in excess of that figure. We came on 15th of August of this year with an Excess Vote of £100 in order to regularise the use of these excess Appropriations-in-Aid. What we now seek is permanent Parliamentary covering sanction under Section 5 of the Appropriation Act for the setting off of the underspendings, £191,491 9s. 3d., against the over-spendings, £51,943,353 16s. 10d., leaving the net deficiency to be met out of the Vote of Credit, namely, the £51,751,862 7s. 7d. of the Resolution now before the House. I hope my hon. Friend will be fully satisfied with this explanation.

Sir F. BANBURY

Did the right hon. Gentleman say that he had spent more than was authorised by the Vote of Credit?

Dr. MACNAMARA

No; more than the estimate.

Sir F. BANBURY

Of course, the transference is perfectly in order, provided the total sum spent is not beyond the total authorised by the estimate.

Mr. JONATHAN SAMUEL

I think this proposal ought to have been explained. There is nothing here to indicate the original estimate. You only give here the surpluses under some headings, and the deficits under the other. If it is explained that there is a net deficit of £51,943,000 then it is quite understandable why it has occurred.

Mr. RAWLINSON

Is it necessary to get the sanction of the House to these transfers? Frequently upon Votes of Credit I have raised the point that matters were dealt with which have never come before the House.

Dr. MACNAMARA

Yes, it is necessary, and all these matters are regulated by the Treasury Minutes. I will send the hon. and learned Member copies of those Minutes if he desires them.

Colonel GRETTON

I would like to know if what we are adopting now prejudices any of the questions which arise on the Vote of Credit. If it is merely a question of transferring the balances, then, of course, it is quite a different matter, but if we are prejudicing any of the issues that may arise on war expenditure, then it is a matter of very great importance.

Dr. MACNAMARA

That is not so. We are dealing now with the total deficits as on the Papers.

Colonel GRETTON

Then I am satisfied if we are only dealing with the technical transfer of small surpluses, and I understand that the larger question is not being dealt with.

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday).

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd of February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty minutes before Seven o'clock.