CLAUSE 3.—(Relations with Statutory Committee.) (Hansard, 30 November 1916)

§ Mr. BARNES
I beg to move, to leave out the words "and in accordance with the instructions of."
I acknowledge gladly that this Bill does carry out, on the whole, pretty well what I advocated on Monday evening. That is to say, it leaves the powers and duties of all existing authorities as they are, and leaves the powers and duties of the Statutory Committee as they were, but there is an important difference here. What I am afraid of is that these words, literally interpreted, would mean crippling the Statutory Committee. Of course, the Statutory Committee is transformed, so to speak, by this Bill and ceases to be an independent body, and becomes a body under the control of the Pensions Minister. I do not object to that. I think that the Pensions Minister must ultimately control all authorities dealing with pensions and grants, but the words "in accordance with the instructions of the Minister of Pensions," literally interpreted, would mean that we should have to wait until we had the instructions of the Minister, after this Bill becomes an Act, before we did anything else. That would be the simple rendering of the words as they are in the Bill. I do not know whether that was meant, though probably it was not, but that is how it might be interpreted. But even if we do not give the words so literal an interpretation, it does, I think, to an unnecessary extent interfere with the exercise of those powers and rights which are left to the Statutory Committee.
We have it now as one of the duties of the Statutory Committee to set up local committees, and there is a certain discretion left with the Statutory Committee as to the setting up of those local committees. A borough with 50,000 inhabitants must have a local committee, and a borough with fewer than 50,000 may in special circumstances have a local committee. If these words remain in we shall no longer have a Statutory Committee, and the right to exercise a discretion as to whether a small borough shall have a local committee or not, but shall be obliged, if instructed by the Pensions Minister, to decide that there are exceptional circumstances in some particular case, and that a small borough must therefore have a local 598 committee. Therefore, while in the main the Bill does leave the powers and duties of all existing authorities as they were, to that extent it does cut into them so far as the Statutory Committee is concerned. I cannot help thinking that that is not meant, but it may give rise to a great deal of friction. We are all agreed that this Bill, when it becomes an Act, should become operative with the least possible friction, and because this seems to me unnecessary and provocative, in regard to-a number of men who have been working on pensions for a long time, and in respect of whom it may be said without undue-optimism that they know their business, that I move this Amendment.

§ Sir H. CRAIK
I wish as strongly as I can to support the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Black-friars Division. I certainly do not in the slightest degree object to the control of the Minister over the Statutory Committee. I think that is in the public interest, and it is exactly in accordance with the Amendment which I had on the Paper before. But I think the words "under the control of" the Minister of Pensions will give to the right hon. Gentleman all the power that he thinks proper and that he can really exercise. I may point out that if you put in the words "in accordance with instructions." it would require possibly a restricted interpretation until we had the actual instructions as to how we were to proceed. I gladly welcome the control of the Minister of Pensions. I think that would exercise a very good influence, because sometimes a mixed Committee may proceed slowly and may not perhaps, act with that promptitude that is necessary and which may be impressed upon it by the exercise of the Minister's authority. I think that he will, if he can, concede this point, and I hope he will accept the Amendment of my right hon. Friend. He will find that he has all the powers he desires, and I am sure he will make the working more easy and give the least possibility of friction than otherwise by adopting this course.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I hope my right hon. Friend will not accept the Amendment because it will be a breach of the understanding that was arrived at on Monday night. There were very important Amendments on the Paper and it was understood in the discussion on Monday night that a very large number of Members were in 599 favour of abolishing the Statutory Committee altogether. There was a very strong feeling existing in the House that that should be done, but a compromise was reached I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Blackfrairs Division, was not here the whole evening, but it was a compromise that we were prepared to accept in this Bill if the Ministry of Pensions is to have control over food and the important considerations that arise out of it. With reference to the point raised by my right hon. Friend's Amendment, let me point out that he said it was essential the Statutory Committee should retain powers with regard to the setting up of separate committees in the small boroughs. That is really the crux of the grievance of the small boroughs, and a very large conference will be held in London on that very point. The Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Bill, the Minister of Pensions, has down to the original Bill, provides for the establishment of separate committees. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has gone!"] No, it has not gone, we want to continue it, we want to give that power to the Minister of Pensions to create the local committees, or improve them where they are defective, and where the Statutory Committee have not carried out their obligations under the former Act—which we contend they have not done. This Ministry must have those powers. If they do not, it is a breach of the understanding which we had on Monday night. A very large number of Members of Parliament have gone away under the impression that this was going through without any objection. I can assure the Committee that it is a very important matter; in fact it is the most important matter in this Bill that these local committees should be specifically set up to carry out the obligations under this Act. If that is not done you will never settle this question. I am glad to know that the right hon. Genlteman is going to receive a deputation next Tuesday when this will be pressed upon him, and if he goes not take the power there will be great dissatisfaction.

Mr. HENDERSON
I have already told the Committee that I am exceedingly anxious, and my colleagues and I have striven to give effect to it, that the understanding of a few days ago should be observed. I want to call the attention of the Committee to the proposition on which 600 the bargain was reached. The Member for East Edinburgh in moving the Amendment that led to the recasting of the Bill, said, "Fourthly, I put in the Statutory Committee altogether; I leave none of it out." Now, then, we have not gone so far as that, but we have reached an understanding with the Member for East Edinburgh, who had charge of the Debate which led to the change, and that understanding is based upon the Clause contained in the White Paper. It appears to me that the Member for the Black-friars Division provided the strongest possible argument for resisting his own Amendment. He pleads that the Minister should not have power to issue instructions to the Statutory Committee. That means that the Minister would not have power to issue instructions to the Statutory Committee as affecting the local committee. The Member for East Edinburgh, in his speech in moving the Amendment on Monday, said, "There is no reason at all why the local war committee cannot remain and cnnot work under the direction of the Pensions Minister instead of under the direction of the Vice-Chairman of the Statutory Committee." Surely, if I had to give effect to that, and if we had striven to give effect to it, it would be, as the Member for Stockport said, a breach of the whole understanding reached. I hope, therefore, the hon. Member for the Blackfrairs Division will not press his Amendment.

§ Major NEWMAN
May I ask one question? What exactly has the Statutory Committee got to do? What powers will it have? Is it merely going to have advisory powers or executive powers? I sec that in Sub-section (3) it is provided that out of funds at their disposal they shall do certain things, among them make grants and advances. Are they going to have that money?

Mr. DENNISS
I beg to move, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Major Terrell), to leave out the words "and the Statutory Committee shall render to the Minister of Pensions advice and assistance in respect of any matter on which such advice and assistance is requested by the Minister."
What my hon. Friend wishes me to say is that he thinks to compel the Statutory Committee, by Act of Parliament, to give their advice and 601 their assistance is not a practical thing if they choose to refuse. I pointed out to him that this Clause if it stood would put a statutory duty on them to give their advice and assistance. I also pointed out to him that there is no penalty to compel them to give their advice and assistance if they refuse to do it. That is the little dilemma which the legal mind of the hon. Member for Gloucester wishes me to put to the Committee. It has some substance in it, because the last lines of the Clause are practically inoperative unless something is added. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the future Minister for Pensions will consider the matter.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I am afraid I cannot take an Amendment of that kind.