HC Deb 22 November 1916 vol 87 cc1448-55

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed,. "That the Bill be now read the third time."

4.0 P.M.

Mr. DILLON

Before this Bill is read the third time and leaves this House, I should like if some statement could be made by the Chief Secretary as to the present situation in the Metropolitan Police Force in Dublin. I do not desire to say anything which will in the slightest degree exacerbate the trouble in Dublin; or add to the difficulties of the task of the Chief Secretary in dealing with the police situation. Quite the contrary. Undoubtedly the situation is somewhat serious, and I think that on this Bill we ought to have such a statement as the Chief Secretary feels himself free to-make. As I understand, five constables of the Dublin Police Force have been summarily dismissed or suspended—I do not know which—and so far as outsiders like myself can understand the situation, they have been dismissed for—I frankly admit—very foolish proceedings. But it is difficult to understand where a breach of discipline came in, because the action which they are reported to have been guilty of was done while they were off duty, and it did not contravene any of the regulations to which they were subject. I am prepared to admit that their proceedings seemed to be very foolish; but what I should like to impress upon the Chief Secretary is this, that undoubtedly there was very grave misunderstanding. Perhaps the Chief Secretary himself was not fully informed of the history of this trouble in the Dublin Police. But there- was very grave misunderstanding, and the men were undoubtedly under the impression, correctly or incorrectly, as the case may be, that their just claims, which are now admitted by the passage of this Bill, for reconsideration of their salaries and allowances were being ignored by the Government. They were left for a long time in a state of uncertainty. In point of fact, I am informed that the men, shortly before the Government indicated their decision to the members of the Dublin Police Force, were informed by one of their inspectors that they would get nothing whatever; that the Government did not trust them.

If that be true, the Chief Secretary would be wisely advised to make the greatest possible allowance for any slight misconduct or breach of discipline—if there has been a breach of discipline on the part of these men. I am quite certain that if the Chief Secretary makes careful inquiries he will find that the record of the Dublin Police Force as a police force is an extremely high one, and that even these men—I am told by a person of position who knows what he is talking about—now dismissed have an exceedingly high record in the force, and are, some of them with many years' service, men against whom no black mark of any sort or kind exists. I think, therefore, the Chief Secretary would be very well advised if he took a conciliatory and lenient view of any incidents that arose in the course of this trouble. All I have risen to ask the Chief Secretary to do is to give us information, so far as he thinks necessary, desirable, or wise, as to the situation in Dublin which will convey the impression that the feeling of the Irish Government, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself, as representing the Irish Government, is conciliatory, and that the door is not closed against some action which would restore these men to their position in the force, and obviate and remove any irritation which may remain in consequence of this misunderstanding and trouble.

The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Duke)

The hon. Member who has just sat down has spoken with great consideration of the difficulties which accompany a statement of the position in connection with the Dublin police. I entirely appreciate the spirit in which he has approached this matter. In answer to the hon. Gentleman I am very glad to say that the present conduct of the whole body of those who are at present members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police is satisfactory, and promises to be satisfactory. I shall avail myself of the considerate manner in which this question has been raised to refrain from entering into any details of the causes of the difficulties there were in the administration of the police. There were cases of difficulty which for a few days appeared to be possible to develop into circumstances of gravity. They were due in a very considerable degree to false statements which were circulated—statements which I believe to have been in some instances deliberately circulated with a view to disturbing the police. I should like to refer to one to which reference has been made in this House, which has been made public through the Press, and which caused grave apprehension on the part of the police, and those responsible for their discipline—the statement that a very large number if not nearly all of the members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force, and a very considerable body of the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, in breach of their own oath of office, an oath, that is, which every one of them had taken, had joined a society which was described. The society was not accurately described. If they had joined it it would have been a breach of discipline. Any adhesion to the society, so far as my judgment goes, could not properly or decently be given by men who were in this force. If joined either by the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary or members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police it would have been a great breach of discipline, as well as a breach of their oath of office. I am satisfied by information I have had—and I have had it from those who are best competent to inform me upon the subject—that not merely have not a large body of the Dublin Metropolitan Police joined that society, but none of them have joined it.

Mr. NUGENT

That is so.

Mr. DUKE

That is assented to by the hon. Member for Dublin, who holds, as I am told, a very prominent official position in that society. So far as the Royal Irish Constabulary is concerned, the imputation was even more baseless. Not only had no members of that force of constabulary joined the Ancient Order of Hibernians, but there never had been a question in regard to them.

Major NEWMAN

Nobody in this House ever said in this House that they thought any member of the Royal Irish Constabulary had joined the Ancient Order of Hibernians, but only 300 members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force.

Mr. DUKE

The statements which were circulated, and which I was so strongly reprehended for for protesting against and trying to prevent circulating, were statements of much the same character of those which have reached the attention of ray hon. and gallant Friend, statements of the most alarming and mischievous kind, statements which were calculated to cause trouble in the police, and I think intended to incite the police to trouble; to break the bond of confidence and sympathy which ought to exist between the police force and those under whose direction they had to work. Further than that, I think I may properly state that certain orders were given in the course of the not unnatural agitation in respect of wages, which orders were deliberately disobeyed by a considerable body of men. The disobedience to the orders in question was made a matter of inquiry, and brought to the attention of the men who had made the default. After that had taken place there was deliberate and organised action for the purpose of fomenting further disturbance, and in that deliberate and organised action five constables were prominent. One of them was dismissed, I think, about three months ago, and the other four were cautioned and dealt with by disciplinary measures in the force. After that occurrence those four members, in evident consultation with other persons, both inside and outside the police force, committed a series of acts to which reference was made by the hon. Member, and which he spoke of as silly. Everybody familiar with the facts is aware that it was a course of action taken with a view to throw contempt upon the disciplinary proceedings which it had been necessary to have recourse to, and to put those who were in charge of the discipline of the police in a contemptible and ridiculous light.

That is my view of the matter. It is a view which the Chief Commissioner took, and which was taken by everybody to whom the facts were submitted. I do not believe there is any sympathy in the police force with that which was grave misconduct, and which was a breach of discipline, not merely after repeated warnings by the Chief Commissioner, but after repeated warnings given by me from my place here in this House. I would, Mr. Speaker, take upon myself to say that throughout this controversy I desired, if it were possible, to prevent the infliction of any disciplinary punishment upon any man who might have been misled, if it had been practicable without bringing the whole scheme of discipline into question, and without entirely undermining the authority of the Chief Commissioner and those immediately responsible for discipline. I should have been very glad to have acceded to the proposal that these offences should be wiped out. But my view of my responsibility is that I must stand by the Chief Commissioner of Police in the decision which he has taken, painful though it is, and that the men, some of whom have been several years in the force, should forfeit the advantages which they had gained by a course of police service. I can see no other course than to maintain the action which has been taken, and so far as these five members of the force are concerned to treat this matter as at an end. I want to say this further: I mentioned to the House that there was a large number who were guilty of disciplinary fault. The Chief Commissioner is ready, I know, to treat that error as an error into which the men fell, partly because they were misled and partly because there were misunderstandings as to their position. So far as the general body of the force is concerned, if they are content to conform to the conditions under which they entered the service, and to maintain, as they have been proud in the past, the discipline of the force. I can promise them that not one of them will be called in question for anything that has happened during these misunderstandings. I myself regard that as the furthest extent to which leniency can go in this case. I trust hon. Members who know the gravity of the matter, and the difficulty of the problem as to maintaining order under some circumstances in a city like Dublin, will realise that I will support the course which has been taken as to the general body of the force, and will not treat as grievances the cases of the men who have-subjected themselves to disciplinary measures and have incurred penalties to which unhappily they are liable in view of their conduct.

Mr. T. M. HEALY

The general statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made, I think, everybody will have heard with feelings of some satisfaction, but, at the same time, I think it right to point out that the whole difficulty in Dublin arose because of the delays imposed by the British Treasury in regard to the claims that had been made, and it is really intolerable that people here in Downing Street, knowing nothing whatever of the conditions of Ireland, should delay and obstruct and make themselves a public danger. I do not hesitate to describe the British Treasury now, as I have described it at all times, as the greatest menace to the peace of Ireland. The whole trouble in Dublin is entirely due to the action of a few Treasury clerks. When a force, which, on the whole, has been a credit to the Metropolis of Ireland, has made reasonable and proper claims, it seems incredible that the right hon. Gentleman should have his hand paralysed. I say it is shocking and monstrous that that force should be thrown into a condition of seething discontent by the delay imposed by the imposters of the British Treasury. Having said that, I pass from the Dublin case with this expression of hope: The right hon. Gentleman knows there is a great deal of camaraderie amongst the members of this force, and I think the words he has let fall will act as an anodyne in respect of a good deal of the trouble. At the same time, I do not think that discipline will be in the last degree affected if the door of hope is not entirely closed against those who have suffered the extreme penalty of disciplinary action, and, therefore, without intending in any sense to encourage any agitation upon that subject, or doing anything to contravene that which the right hon. Gentleman has laid down as necessary for the force, I do not think it would be well to shut the door entirely upon that hope.

With regard to the Royal Irish Constabulary, I venture to put forward a suggestion I made some twenty-five years ago, and which, I think, would do a great deal to improve the situation of that force. The Royal Irish Constabulary is officered by an entirely different body of men, rank, and station from the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force, and it is one of the advantages of the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force that the humblest constable has, so to speak, the baton of a marshal in his knapsack, and can rise to the highest position in the force. At the present moment the second in command is an officer of energy and distinction who entered the force originally as a constable. The case of the Royal Irish Constabulary is entirely different, and I venture to think that much of the trouble which has arisen in Ireland during the last couple of years is due to the fact that there is an entire difference of feeling in many places between the population and the officers of that force. I do not see why the right hon. Gentleman should not by a stroke of his pen declare that all offices in the Royal Irish Constabulary should be open to all ranks. Of course, I exclude the head of the force in both cases. I think the Government are entitled in regard to the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and the Inspector-General, or whatever his title is, of the Dublin Metropolitan Police to reserve those posts in their own executive power. But I see no reason why the district inspectors, and the county inspectors, should not be appointed by promotion from the ranks as is the case in the Dubin Metropolitan Police. It would give every man an additional stimulus to action. A small number of them, by passing the "P" list examination, can, and do, become inspectors, but it should be the case of all. The only person it could inflict a grievance upon would be the Chief Secretary for the time being, who has a certain number of nominees, and, I think, the Inspector-General also has a certain number of nominees.

The knowledge that the policeman, sergeant, and so on could rise to be an inspector, and thereby get the additional pay of that position, would be in the nature of an advance of salary. As it would not need an Act of Parliament, so far as I know, but could be done by Executive action, I would strongly urge the right hon. Gentleman to look into the matter. Of course, I do not expect an announcement from him immediately, but I would strongly urge him, during his term of office, to consider the advantage of this reform. It would, of course, meet with opposition from the heads of the force, because they want to keep these posts in their own hands, but it is strange to see in a three-quarter Catholic country that out of some thirty inspectors you have only three Catholics. I think that is a monstrous state of affairs, and that is due to the nominative system. If,. of course, the intention of the Government is to keep the pay and patronage for a special class, leaving the Catholics nothing, that is a state of things which may well explain the temper of the Irish people at the present time. But it is not upon the religious ground—the ground of fairness to any particular denomination—that I urge this. I urge it in fairness to the force itself. It would enable a career to be open to talent, and there is no reason I can see why this distinction between the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force and the Royal Irish Constabulary should be preserved for another year.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time.

Mr. DUKE

I beg to move to add to the title the words "and for other purposes relating thereto."

I ask, in order to avoid any question with regard to the Standing Orders of the House, to be allowed to add these words, so as to meet Amendments made in Committee, which might be held not to come within the strict construction of the title as it stands.

Amendment agreed to.

Bill passed, with an Amended Title.