HC Deb 22 November 1916 vol 87 cc1502-10

At any time after the expiration of six months from the passing of this Act or of such longer period, not being more than nine months from the passing of this Act, as the Board of Trade may by order direct, any person may inspect the documents filed by the registrar on payment of such fees as may be appointed by the Treasury not erceeding one shilling for each inspection; and any person may require a certificate of the registration of any firm or person, or a copy of or extract from any registered statement to be certified by the registrar or assistant registrar, and there shall be paid for such certificate of registration, certified copy, or extract such fees as the Treasury may appoint not exceeding two shillings for the certificate of registration, and not exceeding sixpence for each folio of seventy-two words, or in Scotland for each sheet of two hundred words, of the entry, copy, or extract.

A certificate of registration, or a copy of or extract from any statement registered under this Act, if duly certified to be a true copy or extract under the "hand of the registrar or one of the assistant registrars (whom it shall not be necessary to prove to be the registrar or assistant registrar), shall, in all legal proceedings, civil or criminal, and in all cases whatsoever, be received in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN

The first Amendment on the Paper to this Clause does not seem to belong to it; it is rather an alternative or additional proposal in the form of a new Clause.

Mr. McNEILL

Are you referring, Sir, to the Amendment in the name of the" hon. and learned Member for York and some other hon. Members, including my own?

The CHAIRMAN

Yes.

Mr. McNEILL

I submit, Sir, that this is the only place where this particular Amendment could come into the Bill. You will see that the Clause is dealing with the manner in which inspection can be had; in other words, the way in which the public get to know the registered particulars. All that the Amendment does is to attempt to extend the facilities for the public to make themselves acquainted with the registration.

The CHAIRMAN

I understand the hon. Member is right.

Mr. McNEILL

I beg to move, to leave out the words "any person may inspect," and to insert instead thereof the words, "a complete list of individuals and firms registered under this Act, together with the registered particulars, shall be published in the 'Gazette,' and any additions or changes in the said list or particulars shall, at intervals of not more than six months, be similarly published in the 'Gazette,' and any person may at any time thereafter inspect and make copies of or extracts from such list, and."

This Amendment, which is of some substance, has really in view the object which my hon. Friend (Mr. Denniss) sought to attain, but by a different method. I was very much inclined to support my hon. Friend's proposal, but I was struck by what the Parliamentary Secretary said as to the practical difficulties of working out a local register, and it seemed that it would have been a very difficult thing to carry out. I do not think that objection applies to the proposal I am now making, and I believe that if the hon. Gentleman approaches it with anything like a sympathetic mind he will see his way to accepting it. Everyone who wants this Bill passed wants to make it as effective as possible, and I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary, who has gone so far in the way of improving it and has given a great deal of satisfaction to those interested in it by the way he has improved it, is as anxious as anyone to make the Bill really effective. To make it so, one of the objects in view should be for the public at large to know the individual firms to whom the Act applies, and to get particulars with regard to them. Under the Clause in the Bill as it stands, all that anybody can do is to go and ask for particulars as to any one firm, just like going to Somerset House to obtain particulars of a will. It ought to be possible not merely to do that, but to find out for example what firms belonging to a certain trade are on the register. The engineering trade, for instance, might be anxious to know what firms trading in this country were registered under the Act, which would be a, perfectly legitimate thing for them to seek to know. They never could do that under the Clause as it stands. Why should it not be possible for them to go to the complete list? It would no doubt be a laborious process in an alphabetical list to get out all the particular firms, but it could be done, and I have not the slightest doubt from the knowledge conveyed to me that it would be done. Most of the trades in the country have trade journals, and is there any reason to suppose that the journals of the engineering or building or textile trades would not give a statement from the official list, giving the names of the firms registered in the particular trade? I see scepticism on the face of my hon. Friend as to whether that could be done, but I think it would be done.

The proposal of myself and my hon. Friends in this matter is that there should be publication at the outset with the registered particulars, to which any person at any time could apply. The only possible objection I can see is that it might be suggested that the "Gazette" which would contain those names and particulars would be a very considerable volume. It might be as large as an ordinary Blue Book, but the proposal is that it should be done once and for all, and after that only additions and changes. It would form a continuous record to which interested people could go to find out not merely with regard to one particular firm, but all the information available under the Act. My hon. Friend surely cannot object to publicity except on the ground that the firms which are being treated under this Act are entitled to secrecy. I want to know if he takes up that attitude. I feel very strongly, and hon. Members with whom I have been associated in examining this Bill feel likewise, that the greatest possible publicity that you can give ought to be given to firms who are masquerading and have been masquerading, I do not say in any disgraceful way, but the very fact that the Government are bringing forward this legislation proves that the Government, as well as the House and the country, want that system to be brought to an end, and that we should discourage in every possible way trading under names which are in some sense a concealment of fact. That being so, I submit that the hon. Gentleman ought not to resist my Amendment, the sole purpose of which is to give greater facilities for making the facts disclosed by this legislation available for the country. It cannot do any harm. The hon. Gentleman may say that it would require a lot of printing, but I think that is a trivial objection, even if the volume of names were as large as a family Bible. I cannot conceive any other objection, and I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will accept the Amendment, or, if not, that he will favourably consider it.

Mr. PRETYMAN

I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment, but not for the reason suggested by my hon. Friend that we do not desire as much publicity as can be obtained. I am entirely at one with him in desiring as much publicity as possible, but the point is whether the additional publicity suggested would be obtained at too great a cost by the expense and trouble involved to carry out the provisions of the Amendment.

Mr. MCNEILL

What would be the cost of it?

Mr. PRETYMAN

We want to get as much publicity as possible so far as it is practicable. It is calculated that it would take 10,000 pages of the "Gazette" to put all these particulars of firms in it. Then the changes are constant, thousands of them; and does my hon. Friend really mean to suggest that people will take the trouble to examine the list, which will be probably, I will not compare it with Holy Writ, as large as the Telephone Directory, in order to sort out all the engineers or members of any particular trade? The result of the publication of a volume of that sort might create more difficulty, because it would be very soon out of date. Is it likely that anybody would be able to keep such a list up to date? Trade papers might take the trouble and great expense of publishing a list of names in the particular business in which they were concerned, but it would not really be kept up to date. This Act is to be permanently on the Statute Book, and I do not think anybody would really rely upon the particulars which had appeared originally in the "Gazette," but would, in practice, write to the central registry in order to ascertain the up-to date particulars. I really do not think this proposal would be worth while. I really do not know what the Chairman of the Paper Commission would say to it, but I do not think it is practicable or that the amount of publicity to be obtained would be worth the expense and trouble.

7.0 P.M.

Mr. KING

We have listened to a very interesting speech, but the facts which we have just had given to us by the Parliamentary Secretary confirm the idea which I have had all along, that this is going to be a, very big and possibly a costly business. Especially if it runs into thousands of pages, it is not going to be easy to start in war time. It is quite out of the question talking about a great change like this being widely published in the Press now. But I rose to make one suggestion that may possibly meet the case, and that is that facilities might be given to certain people to make extracts from this list, and then to publish those extracts at their own expense.

Mr. PRETYMAN

They can do so.

Mr. KING

I suppose they may or can do so, but what I say is that certain facilities should be given, as, for instance, making easy conditions for copying and so on, and possibly reduced rates. There are certain trades which might very well be selected for certain purposes of information to other persons connected with that particular trade. The thing applies in the same way to certain localities who may find it desirable to have extracts published from this register. Under these circumstances, I think something might be done. We are, of course, all in agreement with the object, which is that as much publicity as possible should be given to this register.

Mr. McNEILL

I rise to ask the Solicitor-General a question an regard to the interpretation of one point of the Clause as it stands. I am not at all sure that the Clause gives the right to anybody t) see more than the documents in any one case. That idea is rather confirmed by what the Parliamentary Secretary said when I was speaking a few moments ago. When I said it would be like going to see a will at Somerset House, the hon. Gentleman intimated his assent. The Clause says: Any person may inspect the documents filed by the registrar on payment of such fees as may be appointed by the Treasury. The Clause continues: Any person may require a certificate of the registration of any firm or person. Does that mean that the whole list of registered individuals, firms, and documents may be seen on the payment of the fee, or does it only mean some particular case in which the applicant may be interested?

Sir G. CAVE

The whole list.

Mr. McNEILL

I am very glad to hear that that is so, because the Clause as it stands suggests a doubt as to whether it has that meaning. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that he ought to make that point clearer, that he ought to make it quite certain that anybody who goes to see the register may see all the list and take extracts from any part of it without demanding to see merely the documents in any one particular case. After what my hon. Friend has said, I am not going to press this Amendment to a Division. At the same time, before I ask leave to withdraw it, I may say that I am not altogether convinced by what he has said. After all, the only objection that he has urged against the acceptation of this Amendment is the question of cost; that is really the whole difficulty. He says that it would run to 10,000 pages. That is an estimate. He did not tell us upon what basis that estimate was formed. It is extremely doubtful whether it would be found that the publication would be anything approaching that. size. A further answer he made to me, and that to my mind was not of very much force, was that the list would never be up to date. I expect the effect of this legislation will be—I certainly hope it will be—that as time goes on people will more and more trade in their own ordinary natural names. There might be a considerable number of changes to be notified at the: first in the way suggested, and from time to time, but I believe that would be purely temporary. That will go on for a comparatively-short time. As, however, the registration became more evident in business, and the people of the trading community got more accustomed to it, and new firms came into being who would use their own names, because the registration of names was on, instead of masquerading under other names, I think that the Board of Trade would find that the number of changes would be far and few between. On the other hand, it will be a great advantage that there should be some permanent record to which people could go, even if it consisted of 10,000 pages. People who are accustomed to make researches dip into volumes of much greater dimensions than that. I think what has been suggested by the Amendment would be an advantage. Other hon. Members are associated with me in this Amendment, and I hope my hon. Friend opposite will not think that I am too persistent if I say that I reserve the right to put down the Amendment on the Report stage, when perhaps he will be able to-give it further consideration. Mean- while, and in consequence of what my right hon. Friend has said, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. KING

I beg to move to leave out the words "and in all cases whatsoever."

Amendment negatived.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. BUTCHER

I should like to be sure from my hon. Friend as to what is meant by inspecting the documents. The Solicitor-General has been good enough to say that the documents which may be inspected at the registrar's include all the documents relating to all firms. Then what is the meaning of the few words which follow in the Clause: on payment of such fees as may be appointed by the Treasury not exceeding one shilling for each inspection. Does that mean that a man will have to pay a shilling for every single firm into the particulars of which he wants to look That might be a very serious matter. I hope that is not really the meaning. If it means that for each day of inspection a shilling is not an exorbitant payment, but possibly it might be too little if a man is going to copy the whole file every day, and be entitled to copy for a day on payment of a shilling. This point ought to be made clear. May I also ask my hon. Friend another thing. I suppose an individual will be able to make an inspection and copies for his own use, if he requires them, without payment of the fee? By the latter part of the Clause, if he wants anything for any formal purpose, he has to pay for it. If he wants merely a copy for his own information I do not think he ought to pay.

Mr. PRETYMAN

I am bound to say that what we had in mind in this Clause was an inspection of as many names as were desired. I had not in mind the class of inspection which has now been suggested by my hon. Friend where somebody interested, for instance, in a publication might go and spend the whole day in the office of the registrar to the exclusion of other people and monopolise the register making extracts. That is a matter which requires consideration. It is a little difficult. The facilities given would be ample for anyone who desires to go and look at two or three names, and to spend a limited time at the office, but I do not think we could possibly allow any one person to monopolise the register for the fee of one shilling. The point is rather a new one, and I think we ought to be allowed to consider it. In regard to the other point, at Somerset House, for instance, people are not allowed to make copies for themselves; they have to get copies made and pay for them. What was in mind in this particular case was that no objection should be raised to anybody taking a pencil and making an extract or notes for his own purpose. But if proper copies are wanted they must be paid for, the same as at Somerset House. The point is rather a difficult one, as we shall perhaps have to consider whether there should not be some limit on the amount of time allowed a man to monopolise the register, list, or volume. Perhaps I had better reserve any other observations for the Report stage. Question put, and agreed to.