HC Deb 10 May 1916 vol 82 cc874-80

The Army Council may make arrange ments, to take effect during the continuance of the present War, for the transfer to the Reserve of any member of the Regular Forces or for the temporary demobilisation of any member of the Territorial Force, notwithstanding anything in any Act or in the terms of his enlistment, in cases where the transfer or demobilisation appears expedient in the general interests of the country and the Army Council are satisfied that it can be effected under conditions which will render the man transferred or demobilised immediately available for service in the case of military necessity.

Mr. ANDERSON

Before moving my Amendment I really would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to go on with this discussion and break further ground now that we have gone so far. I hope the Government will consider whether it cannot stand over until to morrow. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

Mr. LONG

I must at all events get Clause 9—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"]— but I propose on the understanding that we finish to-morrow to report Progress, after we get to Clause 9, and for this reason: Clause 11 is one which deals with the Territorial Force—I am not quite strictly in order, but I think it is convenient that I should say this now—and it is one which has raised a great deal of feeling in the country, a good deal of opposition, and in reference to which there is a good deal to be said. I do not think it desirable, if we can avoid it, to debate that at an hour of the morning when it would be difficult to secure circulation for what is said in reference to the Clause, while the Government might be open to the charge that a case which closely affects a very large number of persons had been taken at a time when opinion could not be fairly heard. I should like to move to report Progress after we have passed Clause 9— on the understanding—

Mr. HOGGE

You would only have trouble on Report.

Mr. LONG

That may be, but we are the Government, not my hon. Friend, and the best way to deal with the Government is not to threaten it. It is the very worst policy that can be adopted.

Mr. HOGGE

Then do not threaten us.

Mr. LONG

I am threatening nobody. From the beginning to the end I have done my best to facilitate proceedings, and I have threatened nobody. The hon. Gentleman threatens me that if I persist in my determination to go to the end of Clause 9 it would come up further on Report. That is for the Members of the House to say, whether they will stay long on Report. I am bound, on behalf of the Government, to take Clause 9 tonight, and Clause 11 to-morrow. This Bill must be passed without delay, because the Army Council need it in order to get the men. If we get Clause 10 and Clause 11 to-morrow in reasonable time there is no reason why discussion should not be finished on the Bill so as to get the last stages in the first days of next week. With regard to Clause 9, I am quite confident that it will be easy to explain to the Committee that the Clause is not open to the objections that some people have anticipated, and I shall ask them to be good enough to consider it now, and if they will conclude that Clause I shall be perfectly willing to move to report Progress.

Mr. E. HARVEY

May I make an appeal and a suggestion? If we could get as far as the Question, "That Clause 9 stand part of the Bill," and there could be a brief discussion next day, it would be a great advantage. There is no doubt that the Clause excites a great deal of grave fear. It is considered that it does involve a danger of what is called industrial conscription, and it is very desirable, therefore, that it should not be discussed in the small hours of the morning. If there was an opportunity for discussion, not on particular Amendments, but on the general question that the Clause stand part of the Bill, there would be no opportunity for obstructive Amendments, but the general question could be briefly debated, in order that the subject could be adequately brought before the House and the country.

The CHAIRMAN

There is no question at the moment before the House.

Mr. ANDERSON

I beg to move, after the word "may" ["The Army Council may make arrangements"], to insert the words "subject to Regulations which shall protect an employed person against any enforced service of a private employer or any other form of industrial conscription."

I am really sorry we should tackle this matter at this hour of the morning, when we are really not able to bring very fresh minds to bear upon it, and when large numbers of Members are absent. There is a great deal of interest in Clause 9, and some apprehension as to what is really intended. It would appear under this Section that the Army Council are to take powers to transfer to the Reserve any member of the Regular Forces or for temporarily demobilisation of any member of the Territorial Force, and that these men, who shall be transferred to the Reserve shall be at any time immediately available for service in case of military necessity. I take it that that includes numbers of skilled workmen, and the like, taken out of the Army and sent back to the workshop because for the time being they can perform better service there than in the Army. All that I am trying to guard against in this Amendment is that if these men are going back to the workshop, and they are placed under military law to this extent, that they can be called up at any time, they should not run the risk in any sense of being subject to any form of industrial compulsion, apart from their military discipline when they are actually with the Colours. I think it is a matter, once more, about which Members will very generally agree, that no part of this legislation should be used for the power of enabling private employers to take advantage of it in any sense or for any purpose other than that for which the law is really intended.

I do not believe you can entirely eliminate the danger of industrial compulsion, under conditions such as these, by any form of words or by any drafting in a Bill, but I do think a very valuable moral effect would be secured if strong, clear, regulations were to be issued by the President of the Local Government Board, making it clear that although these men are going back from the Army to the workshop, and although they may be called up at any moment from the workshop back into the Army again, while they are in the workshop there can be no question of their being being subjected to any forced service for the interest of any employer, and that they are not to be subject to any form of industrial conscription. I think it would be a very valuable thing to have clear regulations and instructions along these lines. The President of the Local Government Board will tell me in a moment that that is not necessary; that there is no such fear and no such danger. I can assure him that that fear is lodged in the minds of many workpeople, and the more that can be done to guard against that the better. I believe no harm can be done by the issue of such regulations, and by making it clear that this Bill is for purely military purposes, and that there is no question of industrial conscription, so far as it can be guarded against.

Mr. LONG

I really did not appreciate until this evening that there had been such misunderstanding about this Clause as there appears to have been in some parts of the country. I have been told that it has really been interpreted as opening out a new field of industrial compulsion. It is rather curious that this should be so, because as a matter of fact this Clause offers the only real way by which you can use soldiers in industrial employment without any form of industrial compulsion. Let me just tell the Committee just what is meant. At present if a man, such as the man we were referring to in a previous Debate, has been enlisted in the Army and is required for industrial occupation here, such as the man to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, there is no choice between discharging him from the Army altogether and lending him for employment. So long as they are lent for employment they must be, if necessary, liable to military discipline. They are soldiers and nothing can alter the fact that if they are guilty of certain crimes and misdemeanours they become liable to military law and nothing can prevent it. But if you have power to pass them to a Reserve, during the time they are with the Reserve they are absolutely free from military control, just as free as they were before they joined the Army, or as they would be after they left it, and all the military liability they have is to be called to the Colours when the Army Council want them. I am not prepared to accept this Amendment. I am quite prepared to make Regulations, if that is desirable. What I am prepared to do, although it is really not necessary, but in order that there shall be no mistake that the Act of Parliament shall bear upon its face for all who read it to realise, I am prepared to accept the Amendment put down in the names of the hon. Members for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), Halifax (Mr. Parker), and Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes)—

"Provided that during such period of demobilisation the man shall not be subject to military discipline."

That is not necessary, but I am prepared to put those words in to make it clear that the object of this proposal is to establish a Reserve, so that men enlisted in the Army but not required can be returned to industrial employment as free labourers, independent of any military control so long as they are in that employment. The is our intention, and that is why the Clause is here.

I said a moment ago that the Government were anxious that the Committee should pass Clause 9 before we separate this evening. I am inclined to reconsider that statement for this reason. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] Perhaps my hon. Friends who have been good enough to stay up to support us during all this time, and who would like, naturally, to see the fullest results from their action, will let me give my reason. I think they will appreciate the force of it, because it is very well known that at this hour of the morning our proceedings are not reported in the newspapers as fully as proceedings that take place earlier in the evening. Unfortunately, the statement that this Clause means industrial compulsion in its most dark form has, I am informed—I did not know it until this evening—been widely circulated in certain newspapers, and in some important industrial centres in the country. If that is the case, I think it is of first importance that the statement I have made on behalf of the Government, and which, with the leave of the Committee, I will repeat to-morrow rather more fully, should be made at a time when it can go forth to the public as the true story. It is for this reason that I would ask the Committee to accept the position. Before we separate I must dispose of the Amendment, and then all that would remain to-morrow would be the question that the Clause should stand part of the Bill, upon which I should be prepared to make a rather fuller detailed statement.

Mr. HOGGE

On that point—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—I shall not keep the House long. I want the right hon. Gentleman's statement to be made in public, and I would remind him that tomorrow we start with the Irish Debate. Can any member of the Cabinet say whether the Irish Debate will be stopped in time for the right hon. Gentleman to make his statement in time for it to get into the papers? Everybody knows that a speech made from the Front Bench, if not made before eight o'clock, does not get into the papers all over the country.

Mr. SAMUEL

We can only do our best.

Mr. HOGGE

We want to do more than our best. I want to finish the Bill. My first train is at 6.30 a.m., and I want to stop and finish the Bill. If we are not going to finish it, then the right hon. Gentleman ought to have an opportunity tomorrow to make his statement when it will be published, because if it is not, what is the use of rising now in order to take the off-chance of the right hon. Gentleman being able to make his statement? Let us go on.

Mr. ANDERSON

I understand the President of the Local Government Board is willing, if it is necessary, that regulations should be issued making quite clear what the position is.

Mr. LONG

If that is the best way. I think there is another and a better way.

Mr. ANDERSON

In view of that I think that would be a very good way, and I am quite ready to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. BARNES

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "Provided that during such period of demobilisation the man shall not be subject to military discipline."

Mr. LONG

I only accept this Amendment on the understanding that the words are in order. I am not sure about the word "demobilisation" as to whether it is the right phrase. If they are accepted—

Mr. LAURENCE HARDY

I want to suggest that the words "transferred or demobilised" ought to be put in.

Mr. ANDERSON

Would this also include the question of the ordinary rates of pay for the men who are subject to be called up at any time?

Mr. BARNES

I take it that while the men are employed, as the right hon. Gentleman says they would be, apart from military control, they would get the various rates of wages fixed by the trade unions. [Mr. LONG: Hear, hear!] I was going to make a suggestion. I do not want different treatment for Army men from that of Territorials.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."—[Mr. Long.]

Whereupon, Motion made and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"—[Mr. Long]— put, and agred to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).