§ The PRIME MINISTERI beg to move, "That the proceedings on Government business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any time though opposed."
§ Sir F. BANBURYMay I ask the Prime Minister what he intends to do under the circumstances which have just arisen? The Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule is, as the House will see, in such a form that not only can it be debated, but it will include all Government business. Therefore, if we pass it in this form without an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House that he does not intend to take more than the Military Service Bill, we may find ourselves sitting up all night taking all the business on the Paper. I myself have no objection whatever to the Military Service Bill being taken after eleven o'clock provided we do not go on too late; in fact, I should like to see the Military Service Bill disposed of to-night. If the House is willing to assist the Government in disposing of the Military Service Bill we should not thereby, in view of the fact that two hours and three-quarters will probably be taken up with the Motion that has just been moved by the hon. Member below the Gangway, be called upon to take other business. Therefore I would ask the Prime Minister whether he will give us an assurance that, if we pass this Motion suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule, no other business will be taken beyond the Military Service Bill?
§ Mr. LOUGHUnder the unexpected circumstances of this Debate which have arisen I should like to put it to my right hon. Friend whether he could not see his way to withdraw his Resolution and not press this matter to-night. Nothing was done in this House yesterday to delay the progress of the Military Service Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] No; there was a most reasonable discussion of matters of the greatest importance, and in which interest is taken outside this House. We are not likely to have a satisfactory discussion at midnight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I know all my hon. Friends 692 do not agree with me, but it is a great mistake. I put it to the Prime Minister whether, on the whole, in the interests of public business and having regard to the importance of the subject, he cannot see his way to withdraw this Resolution, and let us make as good progress as we can with the Bill until a quarter past eight to-night.
§ Mr. BARNESMay I suggest that whatever else takes place the Summer Time Bill may be taken to-day? A time limit is there automatically to operate. Next Saturday week, I believe, is the date fixed for the operation of the Bill. A long debate has already taken place. Therefore I would express a hope that the Bill might be taken to-day.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYWe are all very anxious that time should be given for a Debate on the Irish situation.
Mr. HEALYIt is we who are concerned with that country. We are here for that purpose. We are here for no object or function except that of standing up for our country. We are anxious that this matter should be debated. The House of Lords has taken the opportunity of having a Debate anterior to ourselves. I do not object to the hon. Member for East Mayo making his Motion with a view to preventing further executions. I must say I understood from the Prime Minister, whose compassionate nature I at any rate realise, to give an answer that no further executions were likely.
§ The PRIME MINISTERExcept in respect of some cases already heard.
§ Mr. HEALYVery well. I make the suggestion that the Government should give to-morrow for an Irish Debate. I suggest the whole day, because it is most unfair to us to begin a Debate late at night. If it begins at 8.15 it can only last, as I understand the Rules of the House—for I, like the hon. Member, am somewhat rusty on them—for two or three hours. We are entitled, I suggest, to a full day's discussion of this matter, and there is the special point in the promise which the right hon. Gentleman has given that he would name the Commissioners to-day and give other information which we have not had. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman the 693 Member for East Mayo will take the suggestion from me. I suppose he will not. We are, however, entitled to no truncated, but a full day's discussion. My suggestion is that we should have that to-morrow. That will be a much more satisfactory way of dealing with this business than having what I may call a "hole-and-corner" discussion late at night.
§ Mr. DILLONThe hon. and learned Member for Cork suggests that I would not take any suggestion from him. I will take any suggestion from him that commends itself to my judgment. He clearly stated my object at the beginning of his observations. My object in moving for the Adjournment was by no means to raise the whole of the Irish question. I entirely endorse the claim made by the hon. and learned Member for Cork. Those of us who have been in the middle of it, and realise what it all means and the horrors of it, think we are entitled, at the earliest possible moment, to a discussion of the situation in Ireland. The sole object of my Motion is to stop the executions. I wish I could withdraw the Motion. I cannot! The Prime Minister distinctly guarded himself—as I understood him—by saying that no further executions would take place except in respect of sentences already confirmed.
§ The PRIME MINISTERwas understood to assent.
§ Mr. DILLONHow many are those? We are in the dark, and I must say that the distinct feeling in Dublin when I left, and in Ireland, was such that I regard, and must regard, as a matter of overwhelming importance—the putting a stop immediately to these executions. Therefore, my Motion is narrowly confined to that, and I have no notion of attempting to raise the general question of Ireland. It would be an outrage to do so on a Motion for the Adjournment which could only last two and a half hours. I have no such notion, but I hope when the proper time comes, at a quarter past eight, fully to justify my action, or at least make an effort to justify it, in asking at the earliest possible moment the attention of the House to stop the executions absolutely. If the Prime Minister could have seen his way to give that pledge, I certainly would not have moved.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI certainly appreciate my hon. Friend's position. 694 At the same time, I think there is great force in the appeal made by the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy). It is extremely desirable, if we can, without prejudice to the question raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), that we should proceed continuously with this Bill and get through as much as we can to-night. I think on the whole—I am in the hands of the House; it does not matter to me one way or another—the general convenience, including the purpose of the hon. Member for East Mayo, would be equally well served if we took his Motion—I will give him every facility for it—the first thing to-morrow. I can assure him in the meantime that no executions will take place. There will be no prejudice in any way to those he represents I can assure the House I feel as strongly as my hon. Friend does. We want as soon as we can, and as completely as we can, to put a stop even to this necessary vindication of the law. I am sorry that anyone should think that my hon. Friend, in the appeal he made, is speaking for anything but the general sentiment of the House—I am quite sure in every quarter of the House—just as much as here. I think my hon. Friend may rest satisfied with my assurance, and allow us to proceed with the ordinary course of the Bill to-night, on the understanding that he will have first place to-morrow, and that nothing will be done in the meantime to prejudice the position.
§ Sir E. CARSONMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the event of to-morrow being allocated to a discussion on Ireland, whether it will be limited in any way or be restricted to what the hon. Member for Mayo wishes to raise? I hope the House will believe me, with the utmost sincerity, when I say that I should be sorry at the present moment that such a discussion should arise as would drive us back into the old considerations as regards the Irish question generally. That may have to be done one day, but I hope, at all events, at the present moment of excitement that may not take place, and that the Motion may be limited to what the hon. Member for Mayo has asked. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the event of to-morrow being occupied with the Irish Debate, and our not having finished with the compulsory Bill to-night, which I hope we will, will we take it up on Friday so as to get rid of it this week?
§ Mr. J. REDMONDMay I be allowed to say a word before the Prime Minister rises again? As far as I can see, it would be an undesirable thing to-morrow to raise a wide discussion on the whole Irish situation which might land us in the kind of controversy which would be unsuitable at this moment, though the time will come when it will have to be gone into, and, as far as my judgment goes or my advice has any weight, I would say the discussion to-morrow ought to be limited in its scope, and ought not to be of such a character as to raise those other questions which, when we come to consider this matter broadly, as we shall have to before long, must be gone into.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI entirely agree with what has been said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I think, if we take this to-morrow the first thing, it is on the understanding that it is confined to—
§ Sir F. BANBURYOnly that one Bill?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI will try to arrange a way. No matter, we shall have the general sense of the House in any procedure that may be adopted to-morrow. The hon. Member for Mayo will raise the question he was going to raise to-night, and the discussion will be limited to that topic, and not range over a wide area.
§ Mr. DILLONOf course, I recognise the very great value of the assurance that has been given to me by the Prime Minister, that if I consent to abandon my right to move the Adjournment to-night, no executions will take place between now and to-morrow. I sympathise very deeply with the view expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Cork, who would like at the earliest possible moment—I am not in the least afraid of it—that the whole of the Irish situation should be fully discussed. But I think, if the hon. Member for Cork for the moment will take anything I say on its merits, that to mix up this narrow question of whether it is good policy—and I will be able to put it to you on those grounds with great force to-morrow—to continue these executions, with a discussion raising up old bitterness—I hope not—but, at all events, introducing all kinds of past controversies, would be a mistake, and I think it would place me at a disadvantage, and, much as I desire to meet the Prime Minister, and am prepared to 696 meet him and thank him for the very courteous and generous way in which he has met me, I would not like to give up my right unless I have the assurance he has now given me, that it will be possible to-morrow to confine the Debate to the one issue, which is for the moment the lives of these individuals involved, which I very much desire to keep separate from, those general questions. What I suggest, if it be possible, is that I should put a Motion on the Paper raising the point I desire to raise. [HON. MEMBERS: "Take it to-night."]
§ The PRIME MINISTERI think we can now come to an agreement. I will do my best to carry out what I am sure is the general sense of the House. With regard to the question put by the right hon. Baronet for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), I presume it does not require very much ingenuity and conjecture. I assume that he had in view the second Order on the Paper, the Summer Time Bill. The hon. Member is, I think, in a confessed minority in the House on that, and I believe the general opinion of the House is in favour of the Bill. I say nothing about my own opinion.
§ Sir F. BANBURYOnly that one Bill.
§ The PRIME MINISTEROnly that one Bill.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am always anxious to oblige my right hon. Friend.
§ Sir E. CARSONThe Prime Minister has not said whether he will take Friday to finish the Compulsion Bill if necessary.
§ The PRIME MINISTERAs at present advised, I think we ought. I hope the Irish Debate will not take the whole of to-morrow. I hope we may make substantial progress with the Military Service Bill to-morrow.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERWill there be any unnecessary shortening of the Debate to-night?
§ Sir A. MARKHAMWill the Third Reading of the Military Service Bill be taken on Friday or only the Committee and Report stages this week?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat depends on the progress we make.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMYou do not propose to go further than the Committee stage?
§ The PRIME MINISTERIf we get the Committee stage to-morrow I think perhaps we may be content.
§ Mr. W. O'BRIENWill the right hon. Gentleman now make the announcement he promised to make as to the names of the Commission of Inquiry into the causes of the outbreak in Ireland?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThe Government propose to set up a Commission of Inquiry, in strict pursuance of the promise I gave, and not to go beyond it, namely, to inquire into the causes of the recent outbreak of rebellion in Ireland and the conduct and degree of responsibility of the military and civil executive in Ireland in connection therewith, and for that purpose we propose that a small Commission shall be set up, of which the chairman will be
- Lord Hardinge of Penshurst, late Viceroy of India,
- Mr. Justice Shearman, and
- Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, late Under-Secretary to the Home Office here.
§ Mr. J. REDMONDMight I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has received a copy of a resolution passed by the Irish party on this matter, in which it was pointed out that, in their opinion, no investigation would be satisfactory either in Ireland or in Great Britain into this matter which was not a full investigation of all the circumstances which led up to this deplorable incident, and also into the fitness of the present form of Executive Government in Ireland; whether, in view of that expression of opinion from the majority of the Irish representatives, he will so alter and enlarge the terms of reference as to meet that view; and, also, whether he will be open to receive an expression of opinion with reference to the constitution of this tribunal?
§ Sir E. CARSONMight I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will reconsider the propriety of sending an English judge from his work here to investigate a matter of this kind? I have hardly ever known such a thing happen without very strong objection, and it is not at all well that an administrator of justice should be brought from his proper sphere into executive matters.
§ The PRIME MINISTEROur object was to provide a tribunal which was absolutely free from any suspicion of 698 party complexion or colour. Such a tribunal is very difficult to constitute in this country, and it is almost impossible to constitute it unless you have at least one of its members a person of judicial experience. The other two members of the tribunal are distinguished public servants who have spent their whole lives in administrative work, but we did feel it desirable to fortify the tribunal with somebody of judicial experience, and it was not until we were assured that this distinguished judge could be spared from his own work that we ventured to ask him to undertake these duties. I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
§ Sir E. CARSONThe Prime Minister does not imagine I am making any imputation on the judge?
§ The PRIME MINISTERNot at all.
§ Sir E. CARSONIt is the principle of taking away a judge from the Courts.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI share that feeling to the full, and it is only because this inquiry is of such a peculiar kind that it is absolutely necessary that it should be conducted by persons who have no kind of political antecedents or suspicion of any form of partiality. It seemed to us this was a case where an exception ought to be made to the general rule. With regard to what the hon. Member for Waterford said, the Government, in appointing this Committee of Inquiry, are simply carrying out the pledge I gave on the first occasion when this unhappy incident was discussed. I always should with very great respect consider the opinion of a large section of representatives of Ireland, but I think a Commission of Inquiry to investigate the whole causes of Irish discontent and the condition of Irish administration is one which certainly the Government would never pledge themselves to propose—it would open the floodgates of controversy in every possible way—and which, so far as I know, no conceivable tribunal in this country is capable of adequately investigating. Therefore it is a question of a limited inquiry, or no inquiry at all, and it is to carry out my promise that there should be an inquiry that I make this proposal.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMONDI wish to ask whether the pledge which the Prime Minister gave was not that a certain inquiry would be made into the origin of the whole of these transactions, and I would like to know whether that is possible, if 699 the reference is limited in the way he says; and whether he does not think it will be a very great misfortune if any inqury is held which does not command the confidence of the people of Ireland and Great Britain?
§ The PRIME MINISTERMy words were carefully chosen. My promise to the House was to have an inquiry into the causes of and the responsibility for this particular outbreak, and that is what public opinion and the House want. I am strictly fulfilling that undertaking and not going beyond it in the proposal which I now make.
§ Mr. W. O'BRIENAre we to under stand—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI must remind the House that we are now discussing the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule, and that is a slender peg on which to hang a discussion.
§ Mr. GINNELLI wish to ask the Prime Minister a very small question. Will there be no Irishman on this tribunal?
§ Mr. SPEAKER roses—
§ Mr. GINNELLI desire to ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] On a point of Order. I desire to ask on what principle or rule I am prevented from asking a question on precisely the same subject on which you have allowed other hon. Members to ask questions? What I propose to ask will be perfectly in order.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member will have noticed that I had already risen before he rose to stop the discussion because it was irregular.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Ordered, That the Proceedings on Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any time though opposed.—[The Prime Minister.]