§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ 11. "That a sum, not exceeding £l,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, for the Expenses of the Ministry of Munitions."
Sir H. DALZIELI notice that there is an item in this Vote providing for guns. I would like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary could inform us if the Department is giving special attention to the supply of machine guns. I am continually receiving complaints in regard to this matter. I know we are in this respect much better equipped than we were at the beginning. I am very glad that is so, and I am afraid if we were not our soldiers would stand very little chance. Is special attention being given to this matter? get continual complaints from men who are absolutely handling the guns and there is a very urgent demand for more. Can the hon. Gentleman assure us he is doing everything he can in this respect? I would like also to refer to the question of trench-warfare supplies. I believe that the Germans have been greatly ahead of us in regard to matters of that kind. They have been able to make trenches with greater rapidity than we have. I have no doubt my hon. Friend has given attention to this matter and I hope he may be able to assure us that everything necessary is being done in this respect. May I ask also what are the facts of the case with regard to the supply of aeroplanes? It is stated officially that the Ministry of Munitions has that in hand, and it is stated by a member of the Government that it has been left to another Department. Are we to trust the Ministry of Munitions to give us an adequate supply of aeroplanes in the future, and can the hon. Gentleman tell us who is to be responsible for their construction in future?
§ Sir T. ESMONDEThis is a very important Vote, and I do not think it ought to be allowed to pass without a word or 1159 two. We have had only two discussions about munitions since the Ministry of Munitions was established, and on both occasions the discussion has taken place in a practically empty House. I agree with my right hon. Friend opposite in regard to machine-guns. We all know the position in that respect, and if it was for that matter alone it would be a good thing that the Ministry of Munitions had been established. There are a number of questions that might be discussed on this Vote. I should like to say a word more, by way of warning, with regard to the housing schemes. A number of people, myself included, are strongly of opinion that the housing of munition workers would have been carried out much more expeditiously and economically in some cases if it had been left to the local authorities, and if local authorities had been allowed to carry out their own housing schemes. The Government, no doubt for good reasons, stopped local housing schemes and decided to provide housing accommodation under the powers of the Ministry of Munitions. I make no complaint about that. I only say that the matter should be very carefully watched, and when the War is over possibly questions may be raised as to how the money has been spent on the housing of munition workers.
I should like also to refer to the manufacture of munitions in Ireland. I apologise for not having given notice, but I do not expect any answer, because the matter is at present being discussed; nothing is yet settled, and no definite arrangements have been arrived at. I would like to say in a friendly way that there is in my country a sort of suspicion—I will not put it so strongly as that—but there is a feeling that Irish resources are not being utilised to their fullest extent. I know something about the capabilities in the South. It may be that the Minister of Munitions proposes to utilise them. As far as we can see there is no doubt that Irish resources are not being utilised. I will not talk about 9.2 shells, as I understand that that question is in process of settlement. With regard to machinery, no doubt there are difficulties. I understand that there has been considerable difficulty in getting machinery from Sweden, for instance, where machinery had been contracted for and practically paid for. I would like to know whether those difficulites are likely to be settled within any reasonable period 1160 of time, as very important machinery is wanted in Ireland for the manufacture of munitions. On the general question of machines I think we have in Ireland at present machines that could be but are not being utilised. Probably the Secretary to the Department knows quite well to what I refer. I think those machines ought to be utilised. If the Minister of Munitions liked to take his courage in his hands, take his coat off, and turn up his sleeves, I believe he could get them, and I hope he will do so with as little delay as possible.
We are an adaptable people in my country, and we are making extremely good and quite up-to-date 4.5 shells in Dublin on lathes made in the year 1847. That is rather an engineering achievement. We have adapted those ancient lathes, and as far as their output is concerned it is quite as good as anything that can be produced by any American machines at present. I hope the Minister of Munitions will take advantage of what machines we have, and see to it that all the machines that can be utilised in the manufacture of shells are so utilised, so that our shell makers may be given an abundant opportunity of turning out all the shells they possibly can. I am satisfied that they can turn out a great deal more than they are doing at present. After the experience of the past week everybody realises what the coming expenditure of shells is likely to be, and what strenuous efforts will have to be made by this country to bring about a proper provision in that respect. Irish manufacturers in the South are a patriotic people. They have put their hands in their pockets and, without making any claim upon the Government or asking for any Government assistance, done an enormous amount to increase the output of warlike materials. At present in the South there are firms employing 20,000 men, and they are perfectly ready to put their men to work on Government contracts if the Government will give them such contracts. There is one other small point—the question of soap and glycerine. I do not know whether that comes within the purview of the hon. Gentleman, but I think that if he would look into the matter he would find that we could render greater assistance than we are doing. On the question of fats, and things of that sort, I believe that Ireland could give much more assistance than is being given at present. We are anxious 1161 to do all we can, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will give us the opportunity.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY of the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Dr. Addison)In regard to the point put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy with respect to aeroplanes, I may say that the Ministry of Munitions is not, and never has been, responsible for the manufacture of aeroplanes.
§ Dr. ADDISONI do not know about the future; all I can say is the Department has not been—
Sir H. DALZIELHas my hon. Friend seen the official announcement by the Government on this matter that they will be responsible?
§ Dr. ADDISONIn regard to the output of machine guns, as my right hon. Friend knows quite well, there has been an enormous increase in the output. I am glad to be able to tell him that the output of machine guns is beyond our anticipations, and that it is rapidly growing. He does not, I am sure, expect me to say any more than that.
§ Dr. ADDISONIn the matter of trench-warfare supplies, here again I may say that in some directions, at all events, the output of supplies has exceeded not only anticipations, but requirements. It is true that some things are more difficult to make than others. With some of the newer matters we have had a good deal of difficulty in respect to their initial stages, but the right hon. Gentleman can be quite sure that no effort is being spared to spur on the output of this class of munitions. The hon. Baronet opposite (Sir T. Esmonde) raised the question of the housing of the munition workers. I think he suggested that a number of the local authorities thought they could do the work more cheaply than the Ministry of Munitions. I can assure him that if that statement can be made good, we shall be only too delighted to hand over the work to such local authorities, because we have plenty of burdens of our own without giving ourselves more to do in this direction. But really I think he must have been a little misinformed, because in this matter we have been in communication with the local authorities, and wherever we are building or 1162 helping to build permanent houses we have given them over to the local authorities. In other cases where only temporary accommodation is provided by the Ministry of Munitions we do the work, although even in some of these cases the work is being undertaken by the local authorities. If the hon. Baronet can give me any information which will help us, I shall be exceedingly grateful to him. He suggested too, I think, that we were not as anxious as we might be to make as full use as possible during the period of the War of Irish resources. Quite sincerely I may tell him that such is absolutely foreign to our intention. The hon. Member below him (Mr. T. M. Healy) knows well that I have personally taken great interest in the organisation of this work.
9.0 P.M
We have sent men over to Ireland with instructions to make as full a use as possible of Irish resources, and I think the consensus of opinion is that they have done their work uncommonly well. Where there may be flaws in this work, I shall be very glad if the hon. Baronet will give me any information which will be of assistance to us. I know the particular question which he has in his mind, but you cannot always get additional machines that may be available and the men required together; but we are doing, and have done, that which we believe will be most useful all round. The hon. Baronet says he hopes that Ireland would be made of more use to us in connection with the provision of glycerine. I shall be very glad to receive any information he has to give us on that subject. He knows we have made comprehensive arrangements in respect to the whole national supply of oils and fats with a view to obtaining sufficient glycerine. Despite criticism, I think we could show that we have made an uncommonly good bargain for the nation in the matter of glycerine. We are much better situated in connection with the provision of glycerine than we would have been if we had not taken this comprehensive means of ensuring and controlling the national supply of oils and fats. I am glad to say in this connection that the trade, almost without exception, has seconded our efforts in a most patriotic manner.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYHaving visited various shell factories I think it is only due to the Government to pay a tribute to the 1163 efficiency of the gentlemen whom they sent over to Ireland. They are working in a land where they are largely strangers in an admirable way. There is a Scottish gentleman, Captain Downie, I think, who has planned out a factory with extraordinary efficiency. I have some little knowledge of machinery, and I have never known assembled in so short a time such an extraordinary collection of machines—many of them perhaps American—brought together with so great judgment in a country where there is great difficulty of transport and transit. Yet he assembled the whole with great rapidity, and to my mind with great judgment. I would now, as I have done on two or three occasions, represent to the right hon. Gentleman the necessity for more wood work being supplied to the country. He was good enough to see that a good deal was sent to Dublin, but we can do in the country with more than we have. The difficulty, I understand, is that there is no shell-filling factory in the country. I would strongly urge upon the Government that, as Dublin and Belfast have got some proportion of the work, that the city of Cork and the county of Cork should be so provided.
They are within easy reach of the shell-making places of Dublin and elsewhere, but unless we get a shell-filling factory we cannot get our adequate supplies of wood work. If Ireland does not get her fair share, it probably will not be due to the lack of good will on the part of the hon. Gentleman opposite, or, I feel certain, of those who are in charge. On the question of petrol, may I say that I think it is an extraordinary thing that we have allowed monopolists, many of them not natives of this country, to advance, month by month, and almost week by week, the price of liquid fuel, whereas against solid fuel we have our Coal Act of last year which takes steps to provide against injustice. Many people think that petrol is a luxury of the rich. It is nothing of the kind. Since the introduction of the motor industry, deliveries by motor van are made from even small convent laundries. All over the country tradesmen are using petrol in their vans, and the Government use of it is essential. Why then should we allow, I care not whom, to do as regards petrol what we deny to our own coal producers the right to do? We have 1164 come down, not perhaps with sufficient vigour, but we have done something to prevent the price of coal being raised—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat matter arises in relation to the Board of Trade, and not on this Supplementary Vote.
§ Mr. HEALYIf that is so, I will not pursue the matter, but will simply say that I believe we have the good will of the Department of Munitions in regard to Ireland, and that I feel certain they will not neglect to ascertain the absolute necessity of a shell-filling factory somewhere in the vicinity of Cork.
§ Sir T. ESMONDEI should just like to remark that I forgot to say that we feel very much indebted to Captain Downie for the success he has made of the national shell factory in Dublin. He has performed almost a miracle. I am thankful to the hon. Member for what he has Said, and may I support the claim of my hon. and learned Friend as to the necessity of a national shell-filling factory? It is a question the importance of which we all realise. Of course it is not for me to interfere with the decision of the Munitions Department, but I think the proper place for that shell-filling factory is Queenstown.
Sir H. DALZIELMight I just say how pleased I was to hear the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the supply of machine-guns and trench warfare supplies? I need not assure him our remarks were not made in any degree of criticism. I can assure him, so far as I am concerned, and I believe so far as the people outside are concerned, all feel a very great debt of gratitude. There have been difficulties and mistakes, which there were bound to be in a new Department, but I think we are gradually getting over them. I only wonder where we should have been to-day if the Ministry of Munitions had not been established. It is rather too awful, to think what would have happened if it had been left in the hands of the War Office. What is not generally understood outside is the working of the Department regarding supplies. To whom does the Minister of Munitions look for orders in regard to particular kinds of guns, trench-warfare materials, ammunition, and all that sort of thing? Does the recent change at the War Office affect that? Do the orders come now from the Imperial General Staff, or do they come from the War Office as before, or do they 1165 come direct from the War Council? I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell me whether they themselves have the responsibility of ordering without any official authority from another office. If they consider that machine guns are not supplied to a sufficient extent, have they the power on their own initiative to place orders, or have they to wait for some authority to give instructions?
§ Dr. ADDISONThe procedure is that, either originating, say, from the General Council or the War Council, the requirements are stated to the Ministry of Munitions—that is to say, we have, as a matter of fact, I think in almost every ingredient of supplies, a comprehensive programme of requirements. The Ministry of Munition works on the programme, and in the course of its ordering it allows such margin as experience shows are desirable to discount errors, accidents, and delays of one kind or another. But we work on programmes of requirements which have been drawn up, of course, after detailed consultation, and, so far as the new design branch is concerned, the Director-General of Munitions is responsible for experiments and specifications after the settlement of design questions. The Army authorities requisition on the Ministry of Munitions for certain types of ammunition, and any alterations in specifications are determined by the Director-General of our own Munitions Department, who is in charge of that particular branch.
§ Question put, and agreed to.