§ In addition to any other Income Tax or Super-tax charged under this or any other Act, there shall, subject to the provisions of this Section, be charged, levied, and paid for the year beginning on the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, in respect of any part of the income of any person to which this Section applies an additional duty of Income Tax at the rate of two shillings for every pound of that part of the income.
§ The income to which this Section applies is the income derived from securities which are for the time being included in the Treasury special list as denned by this Section, while those securities are so included; and the income shall, for the purposes of this Section, be deemed to be derived at the time when the interest or dividends payable in respect of the securities become payable.
§ (2) The additional duty under this Section shall not be charged on any income derived before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and sixteen.
§ (3) A person shall be entitled to relief from the additional duty imposed by this Section—
- (a) in respect of income derived between the date of the publication of the Treasury special list and a date twenty-eight days thereafter if the securities are during that period offered to the Treasury and ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury; and
- (b) in respect of income derived from any securities included in the Treasury special list after the securities have been placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury; and
- (c) in respect of income derived from any such securities after a person has placed the securities conditionally at the disposal of the Treasury,
874 if the securities ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury without unreasonable delay on the part of that person; and
- (d) in respect of income derived from any such securities which ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury, if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Treasury that any delay in placing those securities at the disposal of the Treasury has arisen from circumstances beyond the control of the holders of the securities; and
- (e) in respect of income derived from any such securities held, in any country outside the United Kingdom, by persons who are not domiciled in the United Kingdom, or by trustees who are prevented by the terms of their trust from placing the securities at the disposal of the Treasury, and are not entitled to the benefit of any indemnity conferred by Act of Parliament in respect of the contravention of those terms, if the securities were so held before the twenty-ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen; and
- (f) in respect of income derived from any such securities which are deposited with persons outside the United Kingdom as a security for a loan from those persons, or have otherwise been made security for a loan from persons outside the United Kingdom, if they were so deposited or made security before the twenty-ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, or after that date with the approval of the Treasury, and if the Treasury are satisfied that the securities cannot be released without impairing the security for the loan; and
- (g) in respect of income derived from any such securities which are proved to the special Commissioners to be held by any company or persons concerned in trade or business in any country outside the United Kingdom as a condition (imposed in that country) of carrying on that trade or business.
§ The provisions of this Sub-section shall apply to an offer of securities for deposit in the same manner as they apply to an offer of securities for sale, and securities when accepted for deposit shall, while so 875 deposited, for the purposes of this Subsection, be deemed to be at the absolute disposal of the Treasury.
§ (4) The power under the Income Tax Acts to require a person to make returns for the purposes of those Acts shall include power to require him to make such returns as appear to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to be necessary for the purpose of ascertaining whether any of the income of that person (whether or not Income Tax thereon is chargeable by deduction) is income to which this Section applies, including such particulars as to that income as the Commissioners may require, and those Acts, including the provisions imposing penalties, shall apply accordingly.
§ (5) Where any income to which this Section applies is derived from securities which are held on trust by more than one trustee the securities may be placed at the disposal of the Treasury if, where there are two trustees, one trustee and the persons entitled to the income of the securities, and, where there are more than two trustees, one-half or more of the trustees and the persons entitled, to the income of the securities are willing that the securities should be so placed at the disposal of the Treasury; and any action taken by such trustees or beneficiaries for the purpose of placing any such securities at the disposal of the Treasury shall, notwithstanding anything in the terms of the trust or any rule of law to the contrary, be as valid and effectual in all respects as though all the trustees had consented thereto and had joined therein.
§ (6) A person shall not be entitled to any exemption, abatement, or relief under the Income Tax Acts (other than relief depending solely on residence or domicile) in respect of the additional Income Tax imposed by this Section, but in all other respects the provisions of the Income Tax Acts relating to persons who are to be chargeable with duty, assessments, and appeals against those assessments, and to the collection and recovery of duty, and to cases to be stated for the opinion of the High Court shall, so far as they are applicable, apply to the charge, assessment, collection, and recovery of duty under this Section:
§ Provided that the Treasury may give directions that the additional duty imposed by this Section shall, instead of being charged by deduction, be charged up to the same amount by direct assess- 876 ment for the period, and in the cases mentioned in those directions, and where any such directions are given, the Income Tax Acts shall have effect accordingly.
§ (7) In this Section—
§ the expression "securities" includes stocks, shares, and other securities; and
§ the expression "The Treasury Special List" means any list published by the Treasury in the "Gazette," and for the time being in force, of securities which the Treasury are willing to purchase in connection with any arrangements for the regulation and maintenance of the foreign exchanges. — [Mr. MeKenna."]
§ Mr. LOUGH
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "applies" ["applies an additional duty on Income Tax"], to insert the words "and to whom the official notice has been sent."
The subject was elaborated in Debate yesterday. I will particularly refer to the speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) who examined the Clause very closely and showed the necessity in many ways of the facts with regard to their points being brought home to those people for whom the penal tax is devised. I have always felt that possibly large numbers of people might own those securities and might come under the penalty involved in this very severe Clause, quite unconsciously, without knowing anything about it, and I thought that was the chief objection, saving the objection of principle, to imposing the tax. It has always seemed to me that it would be as easy to give them notice that the Government wanted the particular security or it will have to impose a tax on it, and if you can tax people, and especially impose a penal tax, you could easily give them some opportunity of putting themselves right beforehand, and that is the sole object of this Amendment. My words may not be what is strictly called a term of art, therefore they may require to be considered by the Government, and I should be very glad if my right hon. Friend would meet me in any way, to amend them. If the owner of the shares got official notice that they were wanted and then refused to give them, I do not think anyone would sympathise with him if he was exposed to penal taxes. The names of all holders of stock are inscribed at Somerset House.
§ Mr. LOUGH
I hope my right hon. Friend will consider it. If individuals can be made subject to the tax they can equally well be warned beforehand that they are coming under the liability. The tax is imposed at the source and the source is available. At any rate, some step ought to be taken. If the form in which I have put it will not work, I hope my right hon. Friend will say he will consider the point, and that in deference to the careful arguments submitted by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) and his own promise, he will see how far he can go to meet us.
§ Sir F. BANBURY
May I explain that all American shares are registered, but they are transferable by endorsement on the hack. Sometimes they are not endorsed, in which case all the rules of registration apply, the same as in England. In the majority of cases they are endorsed on the back in black, and then they become as bearer securities; but the dividends are always paid to the people in whose names they are held.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu)
As my right hon. Friend said, I promised last night that his views on the matter should receive consideration, but really for the reasons which the right hon. Baronet has advanced, it would be quite impossible to send notices to everyone who might be the undiscovered owner of the securities which we desire. I do not think the danger of people not knowing of these penalties is very great. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal has been almost without exception approved by the newspapers of the country. A list has been published in every newspaper in the country. We have also sent every broker and banker in the United Kingdom, to the number of about 12,000, copies of these lists. The Dollar Securities Committee are prepared to give bankers sufficient copies, if they ask for them, to distribute to all their clients, but I do not think it would be possible to send a list to every individual concerned. What I think would be possible is to repeat the advertisement in the newspapers, and if my right hon. Friend will not press his Amendment, which I assure him is quite 878 impracticable, I will give an undertaking that the advertisement will be repeated. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ 4.0 P.M.
§ Sir F. BANBURY
I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), paragraph (a), after the word "thereafter" ["a date twenty-eight days thereafter"], to insert the words "but not earlier than the twenty-ninth day of July, 1916."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave me some sort of assurance yesterday that he would accept a somewhat similar Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman knows the object of the Amendment. It is not quite clear in the Clause to which list the twenty-eight days' notice applies. There have been a large number of lists issued, and it is not clear whether the twenty-eight days' grace is to run from the first list, the second list, or the third list, or what list. The intention of the right hon. Gentleman, I think, is that the twenty-eight days' grace should run from the first of next month. What I desire is that words should be put in the Bill giving people clearly to understand that they need not send in their bonds or shares until the 29th day of July, 1916. The first day of July is next Saturday, and I understood from the right hon. Gentleman that the penalty would not be imposed even if the list of the securities had been advertised, until twenty-eight days' grace, dating from the 1st July had been given. There is nothing in the Bill which will show that. On the contrary, it is very doubtful when the twenty-eight days' grace given in this Sub-section begins. My Amendment is merely to show that the penal Clauses of the Bill are not effective until the 29th day of July.
§ Mr. McKENNA
I think the Clause as it stands is perfectly clear. Twenty-eight days are allowed after the publication of the charging list. Until the charging list is issued there is no liability.
§ Mr. McKENNA
Yes. Twenty-eight days from the issuing of the list. Income derived from particular shares is not chargeable to this tax unless those 879 shares have been included in a list. The moment they are included in a list and that list is published, the twenty-eight days begin to run in respect of those shares. If in a later list other shares are named, then twenty-eight days will begin to run in respect of those other shares in that second list. If a third list is published containing the names of further shares, then the charging period will begin to run in respect of the shares contained in that third list. I should have thought that the Clause was as clear as anything can be.
§ Sir F. BANBURY
No. I have a list here; this list is dated May 1916, but no date in May is given on this list.
§ Mr. McKENNA
That is not a charging list. Each list which is a charging list has been advertised as such, and it is so stated at the head of the list. The names of the shares are set out in a table, and the list has been published in all the newspapers. If there is complaint that the advertisement has not been sufficient we will as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Montagu) has stated, readvertise. The list which the right lion. Baronet has is not a charging list, and is not so described. It is quite true that the charging list contains some of the names in the list which the light hon. Gentleman has got, but the power to charge only begins to run twenty-eight days after the issue of the charging list.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
There is more in this point than the Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to appreciate. I have put down an Amendment in order to meet this difficulty, and I think it would be met in the best way when we come to the expression, the Treasury special list"—
§ Mr. McKENNA
Perhaps I may shorten matters if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to intervene at this point. I will accept the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) in view of the doubt that appears to have arisen. We do not want to be harsh in this matter. We desire to get the securities without harshness and without imposing a charge. Therefore, if there is any doubt, as my right hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Dickinson) also seems to think, I will see to it that on the Report stage we will put in words dating the charge as from the 29th day of July at the earliest. 880 Perhaps the Committee will allow me to draw up appropriate words, making the charge date from the 29th day of July at the earliest, and providing that in respect of lists issued after the 1st day of July the charge will not begin to run until twenty-eight days after the issuing of the list. We will put in words to make that quite clear.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. LOUGH
I beg leave to move, in paragraph (b), to leave out the words "placed at the absolute disposal of," and to insert instead thereof the words "offered on sale or deposit to."
The words "at the absolute disposal of the Treasury" require a little further consideration, especially in regard to shares that are on loan or on deposit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury have stated repeatedly that if the shares are offered on loan the charge will be avoided, but when we come to read the words of the Clause it says, "after the securities have been placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury." By some slip in the offer, or owing to the fact that the shares may be held by people who are not skilled in these bills, there may be some difficulty in regard to the interpretation of the words "placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury," and it is in order to meet it that my Amendment has been drafted. My Amendment may be faulty in that it may not be embodied in proper words. It may be open to this objection, that there may have been an offer to sell at some absurd or unfair price. I do not mean that; I mean offered for sale at a price fixed by the Treasury, or deposited. I think some words of that kind should be put in so that the Sub-section would read, "after the securities have been offered on sale at a price fixed by the Treasury, or on deposit to the Treasury." I think some words of that kind are necessary, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider this matter in the same spirit that he dealt with the last Amendment.
§ Mr. MONTAGU
I cannot conceive circumstances in which, if securities are offered to the Treasury, at a price at which they are willing to buy, and those 881 securities appear on the list, the Treasury will refuse to purchase them. If such circumstances do arise, it is quite clear that they have been placed at the disposal of the Treasury and that they "would be exempt from taxation. If a case should arise which is always present to the mind of the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Bryce) the owner of such securities would receive a letter from the Dollar Security Committee, written on behalf of His Majesty's Treasury, saying that he had offered to place his securities at the absolute disposal of the Treasury, and that would be evidence for the refund of the Income Tax. I do not think there is any necessity for this Amendment. The meaning of the words "absolute disposal" is, I submit, quite clear. If my right hon. Friend will look at Sub-section (3), after paragraph (g), beginning "The provisions of this Sub-section shall apply," etc., he will see how the Income Tax can be avoided by offering to place the securities on deposit. There is only one difficulty, and it is a difficulty which was present to the minds of the Committee yesterday, and which was raised by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Walton). I was not in a position yesterday to make an announcement about it. The case he raised was that of the unfortunate position of the small holder who does not want to sell and cannot lend. This notice will appear in the newspapers at the very earliest opportunity:The Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury hereby give notice that holders of any suitable American dollar securities, of less than $5,0U0 in amount, can deposit the same on loan through the medium and in the name of their bankers, brokers, or other approved agents. Agents desirous of depositing such securities should apply to the American Dollar Securities Committee, 19, Old Jewry, London, E.C., for instructions and information,That will enable any holder, however small, to deposit his securities through the agency of his banker, broker, or other approved agent, and in order to remove any misapprehension I may say at once that any costs of this proceeding the Treasury will pay, so that there will be no outlay at all on the part of the small holder. That causes the last difficulty about this Clause to disappear, and with that assurance I would suggest that my right hon. Friend should withdraw his Amendment.
§ Sir J. WALTON
I thank the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for having met 882 the case which I put yesterday so fully and completely. It is entirely satisfactory to me.
§ Sir G. RADFORD
Notwithstanding the explanation given by my right hon. Friend, there is something more to be said for the Amendment. I thank the Financial Secretary for his statement about the small holder. I think it will be a great relief. With regard to shares which are to be placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury, there are considerable difficulties, although the right hon. Gentleman showed great skill in representing the matter as being much simpler than it really is. It must be recollected that a large number of these dollar securities have been the subject of settlements, both by will and deed of marriage, and the result is that there are often half-a-dozen people or more who have to be consulted and have to come to an agreement before it is possible for them to place their shares at the absolute disposal of the Treasury. Cases have come within my own knowledge showing the great difficulty and complexity of this matter. You may have two trustees, and one is at the front.
§ Sir G. RADFORD
I have seen Subsection (5), but that does not entirely dispose of the difficulty. I am dealing now with the words "at the absolute disposal of the Treasury." If there is a tenant for life, and if there are two or three trustees, and one of the trustees is at the front and the other is dead, and it is necessary under the regulations of the American company that the fact should be proved on the register of the death of the trustee before the stock can rest in the surviving trustee; before that is done—for the process may take in the present state of postage, owing to the War, several weeks—there may be a delay which is quite inevitable so far as the majority interested in the shares are concerned in placing them at the absolute disposal of the Treasury. I would beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give 883 some further attention to this difficulty, which is a considerable one, in practical dealing with many cases. When we come to Sub-section (5) there may be something to be said on this point, and that may be a better place to deal with the matter.
§ Mr. MONTAGU
I have listened with great attention to what my hon. and learned Friend (Sir G. Radford) has said. He really exaggerates the position and seeks a cure which is not a cure. If the position is a difficulty in the case of an absent trustee it would equally be a difficulty if the words of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) were accepted. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will look at Sub-section 5 he will see that certain arrangements are made for absent trustees. My hon. and learned Friend says that that does not dispose of the matter, because there may be delay due to difficulty of reconstruction of trusts, but if he looks at Sub-section (5) he will see in reference to the case of the reconstruction of a trust that provision is made in respect of income derived from any such securities if a person has placed the securities conditionally at the disposal of the Treasury. Suppose a person says, "I will give you these things subject to reconstruction of my trust or the assent of my trustees" and delay occurs before the assent is obtained, that is not a delay for which the person would be responsible, and he would be exempt from taxation.
§ Mr. MACMASTER
I think that we should have a clearer statement as to what is meant by American dollar securities. The general impression is that this applies merely to United States securities.
§ The CHAIRMAN
We are now dealing only with an Amendment to the Clause. This will arise generally when we are dealing with the Clause on the Question that the Clause be added to the Bill. It might perhaps assist the Committee if I informed them that the hon. Member for Inverness has handed in a manuscript Amendment which appears to me to deal with the subject under discussion at the moment.
§ Mr. J. M. HENDERSON
Take the case of prisoners of war in Germany who hold these securities, how are you to get into communication with them? Will they be excluded?
§ Sir J. JARDINE
As regards officers and men of the Fleet in distant places 884 at the present time, and officers and men in such distant places as Mesopotamia, where it takes about six weeks to send a notice out and an equal time to get it back, what is done to safeguard the position?
§ Mr. STEWART
What is the position of a trust where the trustee is in America and an American, and the people in this country have been in the habit of receiving their dividends from him—they need not have the actual dividends, but they may have remittances—are they called upon to pay the seven shillings? They cannot deposit the American securities.
§ Mr. MONTAGU
If my hon. Friend looks at (d) (e) and (f) of Sub-section (3) he will see that all these cases are dealt with, (d) covers completely the case of prisoners of war.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
As I read the Clause the money will be taken by the State at the source, and can only be regained by the owner when he is in a position to show certain conditions which are mentioned in the various Sub-clauses. The relations of a prisoner in Germany will not be able to get back that 10 per cent, until he comes back. In the case of a trust, the trustee of which is abroad, the amount will remain in the hands of the Government, and it will be impossible to got it back until that trustee is capable of being got at. There is a provision that the Treasury may authorise, but I do not believe that the Treasury would authorise any person until they had the proper person to explain why this security was not offered. I cannot conceive that the Treasury would repay that money until the person who can alone show why it should be paid comes back and explains the position. That is one reason why I put down an Amendment later on, which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept, because I think that there are hundreds of these cases which cannot be provided for at this moment, and which we must leave to the discretion of the Treasury so that justice may be done, as otherwise there will be a great many hard cases which cannot possibly come within the four corners of the words of this Clause.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (d), in Sub-section (3), to leave out the word "and," and to insert instead thereof the words "or from 885 other circumstances which, in the opinion of the Treasury, justify them in allowing relief from the additional duty."
I need not argue this Amendment, because I spoke on it yesterday, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he has had time to consider it, will have made up his mind as to whether he can accept it. There are cases, many of which must have come to our minds yesterday and to-day, which cannot be dealt with properly under the Government proposal. There is the case of a man who, bonâ fide, does not know anything about this. I quite agree that the great majority of these cases will come to the cognisance of bankers, and that these persons will have their attention drawn by the bankers to the fact that, unless they deposit their securities they will be subject to this tax. But there is, all over the country, no small number of people who do not receive their dividends through banks at all, but possess their own bonds, and have no official knowledge whatever that this penalty is likely to be inflicted. It is extremely unfair, when a man does find out what he ought to have done and comes and says, "I will deposit the securities," for the Treasury to say, "Yes, you can deposit these securities, but we are not going to give back the money paid, because this has not been beyond your control. It has been your misfortune, quite true, but it was within your control." Then, take these cases of persons who are going to be dealt with, as I understand, by notice, and who hold under a £1,000 worth of securities. They will be tinder the impression that the Government will not accept them. The Government at the present moment, I believe, is resolved not to accept them. These people will not be able to avail themselves of the arrangements, which I do not understand, by which various bankers in the country are to collect together various clients with small amounts until they have a sufficient sum to deposit as a whole. I do not think that individuals should suffer because they did not know of that technical arrangement, and when they come before the Treasury the Treasury should, have the right to say, from every point of justice and equity, "This penalty should not be recovered from you, because this was not your fault." Take the case of shares, of which there are not a few, in the list which the Treasury will not accept.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
It does not say so, but if that is the view I will not argue it. At the same time, I do not think that it detracts from the value of my suggestion that the Treasury should have wider powers than are taken at this moment to-relieve the individual from having to pay this penalty, provided that it is not his fault that the shares have not been placed at the disposal of the Treasury.
§ Mr. McKENNA
My right hon. Friend' has mentioned three classes of cases of hardship. Two of these are already dealt with in the Bill. Under paragraph (b) if securities are offered to the Treasury without condition, then they are placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury, and the income derived from these securities is not chargeable with Die tax. The first case mentioned by my right hon. Friend is one in which no remedy is provided, and my right hon. Friend I think makes out a case for it— that is the case where a person has not offered securities on account of ignorance. It is not always easy to prove that a person was not ignorant. I do not know if he suggests that the onus would be on the Treasury of proving that the person knew he would be liable to this penalty. That is the difficulty of dealing with cases of the kind. I would be very glad to meet my right hon. Friend if I could, but there is always this difficulty of proof. You have got to prove that the person knew we were willing to take the securities. How are we to prove that? I agree that it is very hard that a person should not be relieved of the tax if, bonâ fide, he did not know. But the remedy which my right hon. Friend suggests in his Amendment I think goes a little too far. I do-not know whether the Committee are willing to give these powers to the Treasury which even I myself, on behalf of the Treasury, would be very unwilling to 887 accept. I do not want to have any discretionary taxing power. I do not wish either myself or the officials of the Treasury or the Inland Revenue to be in a position in which anybody could come and press on us reasons why they should be relieved from taxes. Taxes ought to be settled in this House, and there ought to be no discretionary exemption by the Treasury. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad the principle is accepted generally. I should be glad to meet my right hon. Friend as far as I can, and I will consider the subject before the Report stage, to see whether something can be done, and whether words such as these might meet the case, "or other circumstances which, in the opinion of the Treasury, justify them in accordance with rules laid before the House"—something of that kind, to indicate the lines on which the Treasury should proceed, so that the House would have knowledge of the line on which this additional relief was given. I will consider whether that can be done without, however, giving a promise, for, after all, we must consider how far this Amendment will have a different effect from that which we suppose. If my right hon. Friend will accept that, I shall be glad to give the matter further consideration.
§ Mr. HENDERSON
I would point out that prisoners of war cannot possibly deposit their shares, which are held by Army factors and other factors. All the factors are bound to do, on the published list, is to deduct the Income Tax after the 25th July. It is a big tax which is to be deducted, and therefore they would lose so much of their income until they come back. These prisoners of war cannot be communicated with, because the officials of the internment camps would not allow it, and this would be very hard upon them, because in the meantime their banking account would be reduced by the deduction of this special tax. It would not be at all difficult for the bankers and others to point out that they cannot communicate with these persons, and therefore they need not deduct the tax.
§ Mr. HENDERSON
The case is rather a limited one, and the deduction would come hard upon some of these poor chaps who have not got too much.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
In view of what has been stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. BRYCE
I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (g), to add the following paragraph:
"(h) And in respect of the income derived from any such securities which are deposited with trustees in any country outside the United Kingdom under the provisions of any deed made in accordance with the laws of such country in any case where some of the beneficiaries are not affected by this Act or where the trustees or beneficiaries have no power of disposal or where the laws of such country prohibit the sale or pledging of such securities."
Part of this is covered by paragraph (e), but that paragraph does not effect the purpose I have in view. Paragraph (e) says, "In respect of income derived from any such securities held, in any country outside the United Kingdom, by persons who are not domiciled in the United Kingdom, or by trustees who are prevented by the terms of their trust from placing the securities at the disposal of the Treasury, and are not entitled to the benefit of any indemnity conferred by Act of Parliament in respect of the contravention of those terms, if the securities were so held before the twenty-ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen." But there are deeds under which there is a large number of beneficiaries, and under which there is power to change the investment. Under this Clause you could not change the investment, and if you did, it could not be accepted, because it was acquired since the 29th May, 1916. Paragraph (e) does not meet their case, and covers only one particular case of trustees who are not domiciled in the United Kingdom, or of trustees who are prevented by the terms of their trust from placing the securities at the disposal of the Treasury. I do not adhere to the language of the Amendment, which I drew up hurriedly last night in order that I might have it ready for to-day, but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will adopt the idea, or give the matter consideration before the Report stage, with a view to enlarging paragraph (e) in order to cover my point, I should be glad. I know of one case of a trust administered in the United States, under which there is a 889 number of beneficiaries, some in this country, and some in the United States. The trustees have got the power of alteration of investment, but they cannot alter the investment under the Clause as it stands, so far as the beneficiaries in this country are concerned.
§ Mr. MONTAGU
I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend for having brought this subject forward. It is quite obvious the cases to which he refers are not dealt with by paragraph (e), and those cases deserve consideration. He will understand me when I say that the Amendment is not on the Paper, and that I have only had my attention called to it during the last two minutes, but, from the consideration I have been able to give to it, the hon. Member's Amendment strikes me as being in some respects narrower than paragraph (e), and in other respects wider.
§ Mr. MONTAGU
Perhaps the hon. Member will rest content with the assurance that I will consider this matter between now and the Report stage, in the light of the observations which he has addressed to the Committee, and I will communicate with the hon. Gentleman if I see any difficulties between now and the Report stage. Perhaps the hon. Member will withdraw his Amendment for the present.
§ Sir G. YOUNGER
There are great companies trading with other countries who hold a certain class of securities which are included in the list, and I think most of those securities, if deposited before a certain date in May, are allowed to be taken.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. DICKINSON
I have an Amendment on the Paper which I do not, however, propose to move. In view of the fact that the date of the deposit is the 25th July, I would point out to him that it might be well to take into consideration whether the list published after the passing of the Act should not be considered the only list—because there are several lists—and it 890 might be taken that the first and only list was that published immediately after the passing of the Act.
§ Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ Clause added to the Bill.