OLD AGE PENSIONS. (Hansard, 26 June 1916)

§ Mr. WING
I desire to call attention to the question of the Government dealing with old age pensions. The difficulty with the ordinary man is to be found in the way the Government deal with this matter. If you approach the Local Government Board they say that the matter is partly one for the Treasury; and if you appeal to the Treasury they say that nothing can be done without an Act of Parliament. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is a very great agitation on the matter, especially in the North of England, and the Government will really have no rest unless something is done of a definite nature in the direction of supplementing or increasing the present old ago pensions, or in taking some means whereby the old age pensioners may be enabled to meet the increased cost of living. I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, in the few moments at his disposal, give us some reasoned argument, or some reason, why the Government have taken the stand of persistently replying: "I have nothing to add to what has already been stated," whilst if you take what has already been stated you find it: "That the Government are unable at the present time to take any steps whatever. I hope that the Prime Minister will give a day for the discussion of this subject or put down the Old Age Pensions Vote for an early discussion, or do something in order to 695 allay the increasing agitation going on throughout the country on behalf of increased old age pensions.

§ Mr. McKENNA
I shall give my hon. Friend as full an answer as I possibly can in the few moments at my disposal. The difficulty between the two Departments is the following: Any general increase of the rate of old age pensions would be a matter for the Treasury. But I must tell him frankly that I do not think a case is made out for a general increase of the 5s. per week. So far as the Treasury is concerned, I shall not be prepared to recommend to the House any such increase, which would be enormously costly. It would be possible, of course, for old age pensioners to I receive outdoor relief in addition to their old age pension, provided there was an amendment of the existing law, which disqualifies old age pensioners from receiving old age pensions if they j are also in receipt of outdoor relief. An amendment of the law would have to be effected by a Bill introduced either by me or by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. But the preliminary to the introduction of a Bill amending the law would be the production of satisfactory evidence that there is a real case for giving outdoor relief to any substantial number of old age pensioners. Upon that point I understand that the Local Government Board are I satisfied that there is no real case. That is the whole of the difference, or confusion, 696 as my hon. Friend has described it, between the responsibilities of the two Departments. For my part it is quite impossible for me to say whether or not there is a case for local treatment, after inquiry, of individual old age pensioners. That is knowledge which comes within the province of the Local Government Board, and on which I have no knowledge at all. So far as the general all-round increase of rate is concerned, I hope my hon. Friend would not press any such proposal, which would be extremely controversial, and would throw upon the State a burden at a time when the State is burdened to the utmost of its powers.

Sir H. DALZIEL
My right hon Friend will understand that the grievance my hon. Friend brings forward is that the 5s. now is worth about 2s. 6d. I agree that it is difficult to propose money in this matter at the present time, and I only rise to express my regret that when a year ago we pressed the Government for a Committee to inquire into this question of the rise in the price of food, we met with no sympathy whatever, but an absolute denial from that bench that any grievance existed. If we had had a real Committee appointed a year ago to watch this question, I venture to say the food exploiters would not have made their fortunes, and I believe the 5s. a week would have been worth not 2s. 6d., but its full value.