HC Deb 26 July 1916 vol 84 cc1812-4

With the consent of, and subject to regulations made by the Treasury, the Board may promote the formation or extension of societies on a co-operative basis, having for their object, or one of their objects, the profitable working of holdings provided under this Act, whether in relation to the purchase of requisites, the sale of produce, credit banking, or insurance, or otherwise, and may assist any such society by making grants or advances to the society, or guaranteeing advances made to the society, upon terms and conditions as to rate of interest and repayment or otherwise, and on such security, as the Board think fit.

Mr. RAFFAN

I beg, after the words last inserted, to move to add the words "Provided that the Board shall not make such transference except on full repayment of all expenses incurred by the Board in relation to the acquisition and equipment of the property so transferred."

The purpose of this Amendment is to limit the loss in any case in which any portion of a colony is disposed of to a co-operative or a co-partnership society. The Committee last night decided—we think unwisely—that arrangements of this kind may be made, but if they are made no loss should accrue to the Exchequer. The persons purchasing should be compelled to pay all the costs incurred up to the date of purchase. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to meet us to some extent.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Acland)

I agree with the principle of this Amendment. It is quite right for the Committee to have the feeling that there ought to be no risk of land being handed over to any society, co-operative or otherwise, at below its value, but I would like to substitute that the full value of the land should be paid in the case of any transfer for the wording now on the Paper. We may have, and I hope we shall have, one of these colonies, and perhaps more, given to us by persons who are anxious to encourage this sort of thing. On the other hand, we may have to pay a rather stiff price for other land which it may be very desirable to get. We are now pledged to acquire areas in Wales where hitherto it has been rather difficult to find suitable land. We hope that difficulty will pass away. That shows that we may get some colonies cheap and others dear. Therefore, the principle of asking anybody to whom the land is transferred to repay the exact expenses incurred by the Board in relation to the acquisition would not be so equitable or satisfactory a basis as the system that in every case they should pay the full value of the land to be fixed by the Board with the consent of the Treasury. The Treasury would have to be satisfied that the full value of the land had been paid. I would therefore propose for my hon. Friend's consideration that the Amendment should be worded in this way: Provided that the Board shall not make any such transference of land except upon such terms as provide for the payment of its whole value as determined by the Board of Agriculture with the consent of the Treasury. I think that really meets the point.

Sir G. TOULMIN

Does that include improvements?

Sir F. BANBURY

I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that it means the full value of the land at the time they sell it.

Mr. ACLAND

I am advised that it will cover the value of that which is transferred.

Mr. SHERWELL

The effect of my hon. Friend's Amendment would be to teach caution to the Board in its preliminary purchases. You really do make it possible for the Board of Agriculture, in connection with a scheme which to my own mind—I speak quite frankly—is very largely a matter of window dressing, to plunge hastily into costly and extravagant experiments and to repent at leisure, and we ought to have some precautionary safeguard which would deter the Board from plunging hurriedly into experiments of this sort. I therefore hope that it may be possible to take some safeguard against extravagant purchases in the first instance.

Mr. WATT

The Amendment suggested by the right hon. Gentleman representing the Board of Agriculture does not meet the difficulty of expenses. The expenses may be very large, and the experiment may be unsuccessful. The Board may have incurred expenses in various and many ways, and when the nonsuccess of the experiment is discovered and the land comes to be valued, then, under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, it will simply be the value of the land at that time. His Amendment, therefore, should take a different form. It should not only deal with the value of the land, but should take into consideration and should name the expenses incurred by the Department, which should be reimbursed by the purchaser.

Mr. MORTON

Does the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment cover the expenses?

Mr. ACLAND

I am advised it covers the full value of that which is transferred—the land with the buildings upon it. If there is any doubt, I shall be glad to consider it between now and the Report stage.

Mr. RAFFAN

In view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: After the words last inserted add the words "Provided that the Board shall not make any such transference except upon such terms as provide for the payment of the full value of the land transferred as determined by the Board of Agriculture with the consent of the Treasury."—[Mr. Acland.]

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.