§ Considered in Committee.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of contributions towards the -cost of benefits conferred by any Act of the present Session to extend the provisions of the National Insurance Act, 1911, relating to unemployment insurance, to certain trades and employments in connection with the present war, and of any excess in the payments out of the unemployment fund over the receipts of that fund under such Act."
§ Mr. KINGI think that we ought to know what the amount of this expenditure is likely to be. We are constantly-voting large sums of a perfectly indefinite character. They may be hundreds, they may be thousands, or they may be millions. Absolutely no trouble is taken to enlighten the House and no information is given as to the expenditure which we are incurring. I suppose I am a purist, but I must, even if I am alone, protest against this sort of thing and ask for some sort of explanation.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Pretyman)I am afraid, although I sympathise very much with the general proposition put forward by my hon. Friend, in this case I cannot satisfy him, and I am bound to tell him it is absolutely impossible to say even approximately or to give the faintest notion what the amount may be, but I think when he 1628 hears what the object is, he will agree that from the national standpoint it is a desirable one. It is this: It is perfectly clear that there will be a transition stage after the War when there will be great disturbance of labour, and that that may, and I fear must, result in a considerable amount of unemployment. That would certainly entail two things upon the State: one a demand for relief of people who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in that position, and the other some organisation through which any such relief which the State decided to be necessary ought to be given. What this Bill does is to add a very large number of people engaged in trades which are now occupied in munition work to the trades scheduled under Part II. of the Insurance Act, and thereby to apply what is known as unemployment insurance to these trades. By that means we are now, during the War, and when the Government is sharing the profits with the employer, and therefore when the conditions are particularly favourable, undertaking a form of war saving to provide for a serious emergency which all of us foresee as probable after the War, and I think it is a matter which is frequently urged upon the Government, from many points of view, that it is our duty now, during the War, to prepare for circumstances of difficulty which we are likely to meet with when the War is over, and from that point of view this Bill is introduced. I need not explain it further than that at this stage. I am sure the hon. Member has read the Bill, and probably appreciates as well as I do what its main object is, and I am sure he sympathises with it. He will see that what the Treasury has to undertake to do under the Bill is to make good any deficit which there may be at the end of the period to which the Bill applies.
It is obviously impossible under the circumstances to forecast whether there will be a deficit or not. We hope there will not be, and the Bill is framed particularly with a view to avoiding that. We are taking these steps during a period when wages are high and when war savings are possible. The Bill carries on for three years after the War or for a period of five 1629 years, whichever is the shorter. We hope to carry the Bill on long enough. If the requirements arising after the War in the manner I have suggested are greater than the provision which will be accumulated during the War we hope, with the improved period of trade, when things have settled down, that there will have been sufficient time under the Bill to accumulate enough to cover any possible deficiency. I am sure the hon. Member will agree that it is absolutely impossible for us to foresee now the full circumstances that will arise after the War, and it is impossible to estimate what may be needed. The hon. Member cannot expect me to do that, and the Committee would think me extremely foolish if I attempted in any shape or form to mention any sum of money or to say whether the amount we might require would be large or small.
What this Bill does is to reduce, as far as possible, the liability which the country may have to undertake, and it is seeking to do that by providing for war savings and self-help. We hope that there will be no liability, but if there is, the hon. Member will agree that it must be met. All that the House is asked to do now is to pass the Resolution, and the House will subsequently have absolute control as to what Grants should or should not be made. Under the Rules of the House we cannot pass a Bill in any form which may involve a possible liability on the State without having, first of all, the Money Resolution upon which the Bill is founded. We cannot take the Committee stage of the Bill to-morrow unless we have this Money Resolution. I hope the House, therefore, will agree to pass the Resolution now. It is very important that this Bill should be passed with the least possible delay. The Committee will understand that a considerable amount of organisation will be necessary to bring the Bill into full effect, and in order that we may have arrangements made for the proper carrying out of the necessary insurance. About one and a half millions of additional workmen will be insured under this Act. The earliest date at which we can hope to bring the Act into operation is the beginning of September. Obviously, the longer time we have available during which to accumulate war savings against the pinch which we foresee the better it will be for everybody concerned. It is, therefore, a matter of urgency to get this Bill passed as soon as possible.
§ Mr. KINGI should like to thank the hon. Member for his extremely lucid and satisfactory explanation of this Resolution and also of the Bill, of which, I think, he got a Second Reading yesterday without any discussion. Therefore, his speech tonight is all the more helpful. There are, however, two observations I must make. One is, that in passing indefinite Resolutions like this we are pursuing a very wrong policy. If it is going to be a very large sum that is involved, the Government ought to come to the House again. I would like to see some limit fixed in regard to Money Resolutions of this kind. Fix it high if you like. If you ask for £2,000,000 I will not object, but to give absolute carte blanche to sign a cheque, and let the Government fill in at any time any sum they like, is not financial control by this House as it ought to be. The other observation I have to make is that we have brought before us now, as far as I know for the first time, the anticipation of the Government that after the War there may be a period of very grave lack of employment and distress. That has never been definitely stated or provided for by the Government, so far as I know. We have had many Debates and statements in the House in a directly opposite direction. We only have to listen to speeches of the hon. Member for the Wellingborough Division of Northamptonshire (Sir L. Chiozza Money), who has lately been honoured by a title, to know that in his opinion we are going to have such a state of prosperity immediately after the War that it is quite unnecessary to proceed with relief measures at this early date. If we go to another authority of a very different class, we cannot read the speeches of Sir George Paish, a very great authority, without being informed that immediately after the War there will be any amount of work to be done, and any amount of capital available, and that we need not anticipate any really serious unemployment after the War. Beyond that, we have the Allies deciding at Paris that the Allies are to have all the trade of Germany and Austria, so that they will do very well after the War.
§ The CHAIRMAN rose—
§ Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Thursday).