BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. (Hansard, 22 February 1916)

HC Deb 22 February 1916 vol 80 cc578-98 578

§ Ordered, "That the Proceedings on Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed."—[The Prime Minister.]

§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)
I beg to move, That, until the House otherwise determines, and so far as the House does not otherwise determine, on every day on which the House sits
(1) Government Business do have precedence;

(2) At the conclusion of Government Business Mr. Speaker shall propose the Question, That this House do now adjourn, and, if that Question shall not have been agreed to, Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without Question put not later than one hour after the conclusion of Government Business if that Business has been concluded before 10.30 p.m., but if that Business has not been concluded, not later than 11.30 p.m.;

(3) If the day be a Thursday the House shall at its rising stand adjourned until the following Monday;

(4) Any Private Business set down for consideration at a quarter-past Eight o'clock on any day shall, if Government Business is concluded before that time, be taken at the conclusion of Government Business, and, for the purposes of the preceding provisions of this Order, shall be deemed to be Government Business;

(5) All Select Committees, including Committees on Private Bills, shall have power to sit on Friday, and, if the House adjourns from Thursday or Friday till the following Tuesday, on Monday, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House;

(6) Whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Tuesday Members desiring to give Notice of Questions for Oral Answer on a Tuesday or Wednesday may send Notices of such Questions to the Clerks at the Table, and any Notices of Questions so received by them before Five of the 590 clock on a Friday or Monday shall be accepted as Notices of Questions for Oral Answer on the following Tuesday or Wednesday, respectively, and be printed and circulated with the Votes;

(7) Whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Tuesday, Members desiring to give Notice of new Clauses and Amendments to Bills may send such Notices to the Clerks at the Table, and any such Notices received by them before Five of the clock on a Friday or Monday shall be printed and circulated with the Votes."
The Motion standing in my name embodies the Resolutions under which the House did its work during the last Session. I think they were found to work smoothly. As hon. Members will remember, various alterations were made in the course of the Session at the request of private Members. In regard to the time at the disposal of private Members, the Government gave last Session seven full days for discussion of Motions. There were six Adjournment Motions before various Recesses. During the Session the House sat 154 days, and on forty-seven of these days private Members took the opportunity of raising topics on the Adjournment Motion at the end of business. So that in practice I think the working of the Resolution was found not to be inconsistent or incompatible with considerable liberty of discussion on the part of private Members. I gather from the Order Paper that there are very few suggested Amendments of the Resolution, no doubt in consequence of the experience to which I have referred. I will, by anticipation, say in regard to the first Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King)—to leave out the words "The House otherwise determines and," and insert the words "the thirty-first day of March"—that I do not propose to assent to that Amendment, because the House will remember that I acceded to an appeal which was made by hon. Members, and the House has already resolved that the Motion which suspends the activity and the liberty of private Members shall not be continued, without the assent of the House, after the 31st March. Two of my hon. Friends suggest that at whatever time Government business comes to an end, the Speaker shall not put the Motion for the Adjournment until 11.30 p.m.

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§ Mr. PRINGLE
No, no!

§ The PRIME MINISTER
That is the effect.

§ Mr. HOGGE
Not later than 11.30 p.m.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
In other words, suppose Government business was over at six p.m., there would be five and a-half hours before the Speaker need put the Adjournment Motion.

§ Mr. HOGGE
If the House so desires.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
I will not say if the House so desires, but if hon. Members so desire. I do not think that is a proposal which the House would be disposed to approve. In regard to the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for North-West Durham (Mr. Aneurin Williams), I will agree to that. These are the only points of substance which, so far as the Notice Paper indicates, are intended to be raised. I think the House will agree, after the experience of last Session, that the arrangement now proposed, which is merely a repetition of what took place last Session, is required by the condition of things in which we live, and is not an undue infringement or usurpation of the rights and liberties of private Members.

§ Mr. HOGGE
The Prime Minister has referred in anticipation to the Amendment which stands in my name and in that of the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle). I would like to remind my right hon. Friend that the Government have many expedients to hand by which they can put an end to any unnecessary discussion. There is the fact that the House can be counted out. On Thursday night last week the House could have been counted out, and would have been counted out, and the Address in reply to the King's Speech would not have been finished until Monday this week had it not been for those of us who have been referred to just now in criticism from the Front Bench.

§ Sir G. YOUNGER
There were others besides you.

§ Mr. HOGGE
There were not enough of the others. But we will leave that point. It only emphasises the fact that it is within the power of the House to stop a discussion if the House so chooses. The reason this Amendment was put down was simply to get an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman again at the begin- 592 ning of the new Session that in cases where the point to be raised was of sufficient importance, and that it could not be covered inside the hour, the Government themselves would agree to move the Adjournment before the last Order, as they did frequently last Session. If the Prime Minister will give us that assurance, so that we can get it on record, as we did last Session, I shall not press the Amendment.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
If it was so last Session, we will do so again.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. ASHLEY
I quite recognise that if Government business goes on until eleven o'clock it would be unnecessary and absurd to ask the House to sit beyond 11.30. It does occur to me that there may be occasions when there are important matters to be discussed, and if the Adjournment takes place about dinner hour or somewhat later the Government might give the House more than an hour to discuss matters of importance. I should be glad if the Government could see their way, while retaining the 11.30 limit, as it stands, to change the hour in the Motion to two hours, when important matters could be discussed. If the matter was unimportant and not of public interest, the House could be counted out and the Debate would come to an end. If the matter is of public importance I think that one hour is too short a time.

§ Major NEWMAN
I would like to support the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I have a Motion on the Paper to leave out "one hour" and to insert "two hours." When there are important matters to be debated I am sure that it is worth while to give this extra time. For instance, yesterday the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) raised an important point. He was able to raise it and have it debated, because he had the opportunity. But suppose that he had not had the opportunity, and had had to raise it on the Motion for Adjournment, it would have been quite impossible to have had the matter debated in an hour, and the matter would have been bound to be slurred over. Therefore I think that it would be better on these occasions to allow two hours rather than one hour. I would also like to say a few words about another Amendment of mine, to which I attach importance, from the personal point of view—

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§ Mr. SPEAKER
The hon. Member must wait until his Amendment comes on.

§ Mr. BOOTH
I desire to raise a point with regard to private Bill legislation. I would ask the Leader of the House, if he can see his way, to repeat the advice which he gave last Session. I drew attention then to the fact that possibly contentious types of Bills might be discussed in Committee upstairs and a considerable amount of expense incurred, and that then the Government would be unable to find time for them to be fought out on the floor of the House, as had taken place two or three years previously, and the Prime Minister answered a question of mine on the subject. If I may read the Prime Minister's answer, I do so in the hope that the course then adopted will be adopted again. I think that the experience of last Session was that it was a wise decision. It is really requisite that the Chairman of Ways and Means should have the power, when he came to the conclusion that certain Bills would be contentious and would be fought on the floor of the House and that the Government would be unable to give time, of pointing that out to the promoters of the Bill and getting them either to withdraw some contentious Clause or, failing that, drop the Bill altogether rather than waste time. The Chairman of Ways and Means did give that undertaking, but he gave it at the request of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister's answer to my question was as follows: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer on the 3rd February last, where I stated that if particular private Bills raised questions of a public character and of a contentious nature, the Government would naturally feel disposed to prevent further progress. He will see that I do not include Bills where the contentious matter is of a private nature and domestic to the Bill. It is of course not easy prima facie to determine whether a particular Bill is or is not of the latter description, but where doubt exists the question could be settled on a Second Reading debate and I am sure the House would be disposed to be guided by the view which would probably be then expressed by the Chairman of Ways and Means."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 17th February, 1915, col. 1141, Vol. LXIX.] I think that that met with the approval of everybody concerned.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
indicated assent.

§ Mr. RONALD McNEILL
There is a matter which the Prime Minister would, perhaps, be good enough to consider. I have not put down an Amendment. As it stands, the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman provides for notice of questions for Tuesday, in the event of the House adjourning from Thursday to Tues- 594 day, but no provision is made for what has become the more common practice of adjourning from Thursday to Monday.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
I will deal with the Amendments.

§ Mr. McNEILL
I do not think that there is any Amendment on this point. Therefore I would like to have this point cleared up. As the Motion stands now, when the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Monday, notice of questions for Monday will have to be given at the Table of the House on Thursday, whereas if the House sits on Friday questions can be handed in until five o'clock on the Friday afternoon for the following Monday. Therefore if, as is probable, we shall not sit on the Friday, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that questions for Monday night be received up to five o'clock on Friday by the Clerk of the House. It follows from that that a question for Tuesday should be received up to five o'clock on Saturday, giving two complete days. At all events, whether the second point be conceded or not, I venture to suggest that notice of questions for Monday should not be required to be given before the House rises on Thursday evening, but might be received on Friday afternoon.

§ Mr. HOLT
I do not quite understand—perhaps I did not hear the Prime Minister quite distinctly—what the position will be after the 31st of March. Will another Resolution then be necessary in order to carry this matter over the 31st of March, or am I to understand that the House will have the opportunity of discussing the proposal? Again, as regards the application to that part of the Session which comes after the 31st of March, personally I do not like that the discussion on the Adjournment should be taken in substitution for direct Resolutions by Members, because it is a very inconclusive way of bringing a matter up, and we are never able to take a Division. I do not think that that is satisfactory. It would be much better that private Members should discuss proposals on a Resolution which would confine the discussion to one point on which we could take a Division, and I should like to know if after the 31st of March we shall have a reasonable opportunity of getting back the rights of private Members, if we want to have them?

§ The PRIME MINISTER
The Resolution passed the other day deals with private Members' business, and, unless the 595 House otherwise decides, private Members' rights will be resumed, but that will arise again. I do not propose to make any change in that. With regard to the various points raised, I gladly renew to the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) the assurance which I gave last year, and in the terms which I stated last year. I think the discretion exercised by the Chairman of Ways and Means gave great satisfaction. With regard to the points raised by the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Mr. Ashley), he must remember that this Resolution does not take away the power given by the Standing Order to secure the support of forty other Members to raise a Motion for the Adjournment on the terms of a Resolution, which would come on at a quarter-past eight o'clock. That power is untouched by this Resolution. Therefore, whenever there is a matter which requires more extended discussion, it could be raised by the familiar and normal procedure of securing the support of forty Members, if the Speaker thinks that it is a "definite matter of urgent public importance." I do not think you need do it in any other way, and in that respect the right of Members to discuss matters which arise publicly is preserved. I hope I have satisfied the hon. Member for East Edinburgh with regard to his point. [Mr. HOGGE indicated assent.] Looking at the experience we have had during the last Session of the working of this Resolution, I believe we have the right to think and say that we have provided, as I stated a few months ago, for discussions as they arise, and which do not form part of the Government programme.

§ Mr. ASHLEY
May I ask your ruling. Mr. Speaker, in reference to what has fallen from the Prime Minister? Supposing the Government business stops, and the House is counted out at 7.30 p.m., does not the raising of a Motion at 8.15 p.m. on a matter of urgent public importance, with the support of forty Members, fall to the ground? What I suggested was that the Government should give two hours for the discussion of any matter which it is necessary to discuss if it be important.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
If the House is counted out at 7.30 p.m. the discussion cannot be taken at 8.15 p.m. If forty Members are anxious to bring the matter on at 8.15 it is not likely they will be absent at 7.30 p.m.

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§ The PRIME MINISTER
I propose to deal with the suggested Amendment of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. R. McNeill) by inserting in the sixth paragraph the words "Monday or."

§ Mr. McNEILL
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. LOUGH
If questions or Amendments are put down on the Friday will they be in the Paper on the Monday? [An HON. MEMBER: "Not necessarily."] If the House sits on the Friday and an Amendment or a question is put down on that day it can be dealt with on the Monday, and, therefore, I believe it is the intention of the Prime Minister to leave the House more liberty for notices to be put down on a Friday before five o'clock.

§ The PRIME MINISTER
I think it will meet the view of my right hon. Friend if at the end of paragraph (6), before the word "Tuesday," the word "Monday" be inserted.

§ Amendments made: In paragraph (6), after the word "following" ["Whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Tuesday"], insert the words "Monday or."

§ In the same paragraph, after the word "a" [Questions for Oral answer on a Tuesday or Wednesday"], insert the words "Monday or." After the word "following" ["following Tuesday or Wednesday"] insert the words "Monday and."

§ In paragraph (7), after the word "following" ["Whenever the House adjourns to the following Tuesday"], insert the words "Monday or."—[The Prime Minister.]

§ Mr. COWAN
If the House is sitting on the Friday, will it be possible to put down questions for Monday?

§ The PRIME MINISTER
It can be done under the ordinary Rules.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Enfield (Major Newman) seems to put military Members in a worse position in regard to their questions by delaying them three days, whereas they could be asked and answered earlier in the ordinary way.

§ Major NEWMAN
I was not aware of that.

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§ Mr. BOOTH
Will the Chairman of Ways and Means act upon the suggestion of the Leader of the House?

§ The CHAIRMAN Of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Whitley)
I shall, of course, endeavour to carry out what appears to be the desire of the House in the way that was adopted last Session.

§ Question, "That this Resolution, as amended, be the Resolution of the House," put, and agreed to.

§ Resolved, "That the Proceedings on Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed.

§ That, until the House otherwise determines, and so far as the House does not otherwise determine, on every day on which the House sits—

(1) Government Business do have precedence;
(2) At the conclusion of Government Business Mr. Speaker shall propose the Question, That this House do now adjourn, and, if that Question shall not have been agreed to, Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without Question put not later than one hour after the conclusion of Government Business if that Business has been concluded before 10.30 p.m., but, if that Business has not been so concluded, not later than 11.30 p.m.;
(3) If the day be a Thursday the House shall at its rising stand adjourned until the following Monday;
(4) Any Private Business set down for consideration at a quarter-past Eight o'clock on any day shall, if Government Business is concluded before that time, be taken at the conculsion of Government Business, and, for the purposes of the preceding provisions of this Order, shall be deemed to be Government Business;
(5) All Select Committees, including Committees on Private Bills, shall have power to sit on Friday, and, if the House adjourns from Thursday or Friday till the following Tuesday, on Monday, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House;
(6) Whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Monday or Tuesday Members desiring to give Notice of Questions for Oral Answer on a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday may send Notices of such Ques- 598 tions to the Clerks at the Table, and any Notices of Questions so received by them before Five of the clock on a Friday or Monday shall be accepted as Notices of Questions for Oral Answer on the following Monday and Tuesday or Wednesday, respectively, and be printed and circulated with the Votes;
(7) Whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Monday or Tuesday, Members desiring to give Notice of new Clauses and Amendments to Bills may send such Notices to the Clerks at the Table, and any such Notices received by them before Five of the clock on a Friday or Monday shall be printed and circulated with the Votes."

§ Colonel LOCKWOOD
May I ask the Prime Minister to state the business to be taken on Thursday?

§ The PRIME MINISTER
The Committee stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill and the Naval Prize Procedure Bill—Second Reading, and, if possible, other stages.