CLAUSE 7.—(Suspension of Limit on number of Parliamentary Under-Secretaries of State.) (Hansard, 19 December 1916)

§ Mr. SHERWELL
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to omit the words, "Notwithstanding anything in any Act, additional Parliamentary Under-Secretaries may be appointed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to the Secretary of State for War, and to the Board of Trade; and."
The object of this Amendment is to elicit from the Government a statement of their intention and policy in regard to the appointment of these additional Under-Secretaries for Foreign Affairs, for War, and the Board of Trade When the Second Beading was under discussion yesterday there was a considerable desire on the part of the House to understand fully the necessity for the additional appointments. The proposal to appoint additional Under-Secretaries to these three Departments is the more mysterious on account of the course adopted of taking away from the powers of two of these Departments. No explanation has ever been given to the House or 1403 to the Committee as to the necessity of appointing an additional Under-Secretary to the Foreign Office at this juncture. So far as the Secretary of Stats for War is concerned it is within the recollection of the House that under the proposed Ministry of Labour and in connection with the already existing Ministry of Munitions certain very important duties are being taken away from the War Office, and it is very hard, in these circumstances, to see why an additional Under-Secretary should be required in the War Office. In the case of the Board of Trade the mystery is still deeper because it is proposed to establish a Ministry of Labour, and very important duties indeed, some of them of a particularly arduous character, are deliberately withdrawn from the charge and responsibility of the Boad of Trade, and it is of great importance, before we pass words of this kind, to inform the Committee fully of the purpose which the Government have in view in moving for powers to appoint additional Under-Secretaries in these three Departments. It is for the purpose of eliciting clearly a full statement of the Government's intention in this direction that I beg leave to move the Amendment.

§ Sir G. CAVE
I am very glad my hon. Friend has moved this Amendment, because it enables me to make a statement which I have promised to make. I want to make it perfectly clear that we do desire under previous Clauses to appoint Parliamentary Secretaries to the three new Ministries. Then comes this Subsection. Now, the intention of the draftsman—whether he carried it out or not is a matter of opinion—was that we should be enabled to appoint an additional Under-Secretary to each of these three Ministries—the word, of course, is put in the plural because there are three altogether. That seems to be misunderstood, and so I propose to make it clear that only one additional Under-Secretary can be appointed, under this Bill, to each of these three Ministries—the Foreign Office, the War Office, and the Board of Trade. As regards those three cases, I want to state perfectly frankly that we do definitely desire powers from the House to appoint at once an additional Under-Secretary to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. As the Committee knows, the work of the Minister of Blockade is carried on at the Foreign Office. It will be seen that that is 1404 a necessary arrangement, because the Minister of Blockade is dealing every day with goods and ships belonging to neutral subjects, and, of course, in connection with that business questions are constantly arising which require or bring about diplomatic intervention, and it is very desirable that the Foreign Office should be in a position to deal with the whole matter. Besides that, the Contraband Committee make constant use of our own diplomatic representatives abroad, and that work can most conveniently be done through the Foreign Office. Therefore the Government, and everybody connected with the work, hold the view that it is right to combine the work of the Blockade Minister with the work of the Foreign Office, and, if that is so, of course it involves a great deal of the time of the present Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and it is only right and proper that we should accede to the desire of the Minister for Foreign Affairs to be given a second Under-Secretary, who will assist him or the Minister of Blockade. I think I have made out a very strong case for the appointment of that Under-Secretary. With regard to the other two, I admit at once that the case is different. The two Ministers concerned have asked for power to appoint a second Under-Secretary, but they have not said that they desire to use that power at once. The work of the War Office. of course, is growing very fast and the Minister for War asks for this power. I do not understand that it is intended to make an immediate appointment under the Act for the purpose of the War Office, and the same thing applies to the Board of Trade. I doubt very much whether an appointment will be made for some little time to come, and, therefore, I put it frankly to the Committee that the power we ask for may or may not be used.

§ Mr. McKENNA
I think my right hon. Friend has made out a complete case so far as an additional Under-Secretary for the Foreign Office is concerned, and we should not have the slightest hesitation in accepting the Bill in its present form as far as that office goes. With regard to the War Office, also, I think that the power to appoint an additional Under-Secretary is a reasonable power, notwithstanding that there are already in the House two Under-Secretaries for the War Office. Therefore, in that respect also, 1405 should not offer any criticism; but with regard to the Board of Trade I really think we ought to press my right hon. Friend not to take this power. The Board of Trade has hitherto been carried on by two representatives in this House. We shall still have two representatives in the House, but the new Board of Trade will not have one-third of the work. The Board of Trade has hitherto been conducted with efficiency, and in those circumstances I appeal to my right hon. Friends not to take this power to appoint an additional Under-Secretary to the Board of Trade. With regard to the new offices, of course we gladly agree to the appointment of an additional Under-Secretary for each office, and I would call my right hon. Friend's attention to the language of Clause 10, which implies that two additional Under-Secretaries in respect of each of these offices may sit in this House and a number may sit in the other House. Therefore, when the time comes I should, if he agrees with my argument, propose an Amendment to Clause 10 which would limit the power of appointment of Under-Secretaries with regard to the new Ministries to one Under-Secretary sitting in either House. I trust that is an arrangement which he will be able to accept.

§ Mr. ANDERSON
I hope the proposal with regard to the appointment of an Under-Secretary to the Board of Trade will really be dropped, because by this Bill a great deal of the work hitherto done by the Board of Trade is going to be taken from the Board of Trade and transferred to the Ministry of Labour. Therefore, it is a most unusual time for the Board of Trade to ask for the appointment of a new Under-Secretary. Furthermore, the appointment of a Food Controller is going to take away from the Board of Trade a very large part of the work which has hitherto devolved upon that Department. The Department has also had to deal with the great question of shipping, and it is now to be relieved of it, as well as of the question of food control, and all of this work is going to be taken from the Board of Trade. In view of those circumstances I think absolutely no case can be made out for this appointment, and I am sure the Government will be well advised not to press the matter further. We do not want to appoint more officials than are necessary at a time like this, and therefore, while the House will be quite glad to give this power in the case of the Foreign 1406 Office, where a case for it has been made out, I hope the matter will not be pressed by the Government in regard to the Board of Trade.

§ Sir G. CAVE
If the hon. Member will withdraw his Amendment, I am prepared to leave out the words "and the Board of Trade "from the Clause.

§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL
I want to supplement what was said by my right hon. Friend (Mr. McKenna), and to express the hope that the Government will not appoint a third representative of the War Office in this House. But if the Government take power, and it was shown that the occasion had arisen for such an appointment, it might be that we could not refuse to accede to it. At the same time, I think it is the general feeling of the House that as there are already two Under-Secretaries to the War Office in this House, it is not desirable to add a third. Otherwise, there might soon be fifty Members of this House entitled to sit upon the Treasury Bench—I mean that they would have the constitutional right to do so, but I am afraid there would be a lack of physical accommodation. I think the House regards with some disquietude the multiplication of Government posts, particularly in days such as these, unless clear and definite cause can be made out to show that such appointments are necessary.

§ Mr. SHERWELL
I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.