§ Resolution 115 read a second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Sir H. DALZIELI make no apology for referring to this question again tonight, because it affects the interests of a great many men employed at Rosyth, and up to the present we have not had much opportunity given us by the Government to draw attention to this important matter. I asked my right hon. Friend this afternoon whether be could explain why it is that men who have been taken from England to work at Rosyth received greatly increased wages, as compared with men who have come from other parts of Scotland, or who have been engaged at the arsenal for some years. We are fully aware that in the great rush of work which has taken place there owing to the War, it was necessary to get as much labour as possible from wherever it could be got. My right hon. Friend, I think, was mistaken this afternoon when he denied what was supposed to be a view which I do not take at all, that there was any antagonism towards Scotsmen at Rosyth. Such a feeling has never existed. The only feeling that does exist is one of injustice at the fact that men working side by side doing the same kind of work in some cases get 5s. or 6s. per week less than men who have been brought from different parts of England to work there. I submit to my right hon. Friend that there 1771 is a distinct grievance. In the first place, the men who have been imported are getting 2s. more than the local men. They are also getting a 4s. bonus as against 3s. They are allowed a travelling allowance of 6d. a day or 3s. a week for travelling some distance to their work. Take my own Constituency. In one street you have a workman, some individual who has been brought there to work and has been there for some years. But the man who has been brought in recently gets 3s. a week extra for travelling from my Constituency to his work, whereas the local worker gets nothing at all, although he travels the same distance. That is a grievance, and I am sure my right hon. Friend will not shut his mind to further inquiry on that point, and that he will endeavour, if possible, to meet it. It makes altogether, I am safe in saying, 5s. difference between the local man and the man brought in.
We do not object at all to what the latter is paid or to these men who are brought in being well treated. They get a payment, in addition—I believe nearly £40 in some cases—for the removal of their furniture from England, and they also receive a subsistence allowance for a certain period. I am bound to say that the Government have treated them generously, and I do not deny that there is something in the point made by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon, that some little attraction has to be offered to men who are asked to leave, with their families, their own part of the country and all the associations connected with it. I do not deny all that, but what I demand, or what I respectfully request, is that my right hon. Friend should level up and not level down. I think that if my right hon. Friend will regard the work which is done by the local man, and by the imported man, he will see that there should not be this great difference of 5s. or 6s. a week between them. Of course, this would not last twenty-four hours if there was not a war going on. I guarantee that every man affected would be out to-night, and would have been out some time ago, but for the fact that at the present time you cannot have strikes. The Munitions Act has placed them entirely in the hands of my right hon. Friend, and therefore we should not take advantage of that, from the point of view of the Government, because the men have voluntarily, as a re- 1772 sult of their patriotism, to waive their rights as trade unionists. I submit that this could not exist for one day if we were in a time of peace, and my right hon. Friend ought to once again look into this matter with a view to meeting these men.
I am sure that he has nothing but praise for the work they have done; but even the best workmen, and the greatest patriots, will consider that they are suffering an injustice when they see day after day, and week after week, men doing exactly the same work, some of them not as much used to it as they are, and getting 5s. and 6s. more a week. I know of the case of a South African who has come all the way from South Africa in order to do his bit in this War; I know that men have come from different Colonies, throughout the War, and they are engaged at Rosyth; yet the men who have come from the South of England get 6s. more a week than those who have come from Manitoba or other parts. I submit it is an injustice, and there is really deep feeling in this matter among a great many of the workmen; and whatever my right hon. Friend may say with regard to the other point, I submit that there is no possible answer on this one. I urge in the interest not merely of meeting the demand of the men, but, what is much more important at a critical time like this, in the interest of getting the fullest advantage of their production, and in the interest generally, at least, of Rosyth, that the right hon. Gentleman should review the decision that he announced this afternoon, and go once again fully into the genuine grievance which I submit these men have at the present time.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI desire to associate myself with the question that has been raised by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel). Like him, I must say that I was greatly disappointed with the answer which was given by the right hon. Gentleman to the question which was put to him this afternoon. I can assure him that there is a great amount of dissatisfaction among the workmen at Rosyth regarding this matter. It is perfectly true, as he pointed out in his reply this afternoon, that there was another matter some time ago which caused some dissatisfaction, and which was dealt with at the time. As he is perfectly well aware, the dissatisfaction regarding that question has largely disappeared. But with regard to this question of the difference in wage between the men who 1773 are entered locally and those who have been brought from the southern yards, the dissatisfaction is growing stronger every day, and I make no question that the amount of dissatisfaction is increasing. At Rosyth you have workmen engaged in the same class of work, performing the same duties, possibly having more experience than these men brought from the southern yards, and yet they are paid 5s. per week less than the men who are brought in. What is the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman for this distinction. He says that 2s. of the 5s. per week given to the men from the southern yards is paid to them on the ground of their having been transplanted from their homes, the towns where they lived, at the call of the Government, to take up duties at Rosyth in the North. With the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, I have no objection to the wages paid to the men who have been brought from the south. I do not think that they are paid one farthing too much.
But I want to point out—as I endeavoured to do with great difficulty at Question Time; when it is not very easy to raise a matter of this kind through the medium of question and answer—that in bringing in these men you, in the first place, paid their removal expenses, and, in the second place, you have paid these men 23s. a week maintenance allowance for at least three months, if I am correctly informed. I have gathered my information in support of my argument from men whom I am meeting frequently in my Constituency. He was paying, for at least three months, to those men maintenance allowance at the rate of 23s. 4d. per week. There might have been a little dissatisfaction regarding this matter so far as Scottish workmen are concerned until they understood the question properly, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that now that the matter is understood properly by the local men, that there is not a particle of dissatisfaction regarding it. They think that the men brought from the South were entitled to receive this maintenance money in view of the fact that in many cases they had to maintain their homes until they could find housing accommodation in the North. But so far as the 2s. distinction in wages is concerned, the locally entered men say, and I agree with them, that they ought to be paid at the same rate as the men who have been brought up from the South, and they see no good reason for 1774 the difference in wages and why that difference should be made on the ground stated this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman. I put this to the right hon. Gentleman: Does he intend for all time to come that there is to be a difference of 2s. per week in the wages paid to the men who have come from the southern yards and the men entered locally? The second ground on which this difference of 5s. per week exists as between the men from the South and the local men is for travelling money of 3s. per week granted to the southern men. What are the circumstances? There is no housing accommodation for the men entered locally or those from the South in the immediate vicinity of the dockyard, and men have to travel to Edinburgh, Dumfermline, Kirkcaldy, and other places in order to find housing accommodation. The Admiralty provides trains for those workmen free of cost, and, in addition to that free travelling, the men from the southern yards are paid 3s. per week under the name of travelling money, while the men locally entered, who are travelling exactly the same distance, are paid nothing. Can the right hon. Gentleman wonder that under those circumstances there is dissatisfaction existing amongst the locally entered men? The marvel to me is that that dissatisfaction has not made itself more manifest than it has done up to the present. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that if this continues much longer the dissatisfaction may assume dimensions that neither he nor I, nor any of us, would like to see take place.
There are two other matters with regard to wages which I desire to bring to the right hon. Gentleman's notice. Recently a bonus of 3s. per week was granted to the men employed in the Royal Dockyards throughout the Kingdom. I understand that in every case the men from the southern yards at Rosyth have been paid that bonus. In the case of locally entered men a distinction has been drawn, and in some cases 2s. has been granted to tradesmen, and in the case of hammermen I understand 1s. has been given instead of 3s. The other fact which I wish to mention is about the masons employed at Rosyth. While they get the 3s. bonus over and above the 10d. per hour, the recognised rates at the time the bonus was granted, they complain that although since the bonus was granted the district rate has been raised to 10½d. per hour, yet the Admiralty refuse to recognise that increase in the rate to the masons in the dockyard 1775 at Rosyth. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take these matters seriously into consideration, with a view to having some measure of justice served out to the locally entered men employed at this dockyard. I think the right hon. Gentleman has stated before, and that he will agree with my right hon. Friend and myself, when we say that the locally entered men are as willing to render as loyal service as any other section of workmen, and are prepared, and I believe are qualified, to do quite as good work as men brought from any other part of the United Kingdom. I hope that our effort to obtain justice for them will not be in vain.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara)I make no complaint, and I have no right and no wish to do so, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) and my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) should have raised the question of the conditions of labour at Rosyth Dockyard. They say that there is a real sense of grievance and injustice. If that is so, let us look into it, and see if it is really based on any solid foundation, and if it is, by all means let us remove it. My right hon. Friend dissents from the suggestion, which was made at one time, that what we were doing was to stock this yard with Englishmen to the prejudice of Scotsmen.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI confess I brought that to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, but I also stated that it had been put right.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThe statement was made. I wish to say it is nonsense. Of course we do not show any prejudice against Scotsmen. We have had far too valuable service from Scotland in all branches of the Navy, whether in supplying the needs of the dockyards or the work of the Navy generally, to make it possible for anybody to think that this great Service would be so stupid as to have any prejudice against Scotsmen. That was, however, said in certain quarters. I would like to say it is a very curious fact, in view of that alleged prejudice against Scotland, that in this particular case the highest position in the yard is occupied by Commodore Bruce. The suggestion now is not that we have a preference for Southerners, but that when they go North 1776 to Rosyth we do them better, to put it popularly, than we do the locally entered men, whether they are Scotsmen or whoever they may be. That is the case made. These are the facts. Rosyth being an entirely new yard, we were bound to get the nucleus of officers and men to start there from amongst men who were closely acquainted with our dockyard procedure, practice, and work. Therefore we had to ask for volunteers from our Southern yards. I may say this, in order to remove any suspicion that might remain, that we are only too glad to get as many local men as we can. There are a great many shipbuilding and engineering works in Scotland, but it is not so easy to get the men. Subject to what I said as to a nucleus necessarily from our own yards, from amongst men acquainted with the routine of our yards, we shall certainly hope to enter local men as far as we can. The real grievance of the case is this—not that we have overstocked the yard with Southerners, that is given up, but that we have treated the transferees so well that the local men have got a grievance. The local entrants have no doubt looked rather jealously—after all, they are only human—at certain concessions we have felt bound to make to the men who have severed their old associations, left their old friends, and cut themselves off from their old society, in order to go to Rosyth. My hon. Friends would be the first to support that, and they make no complaint now of what we have done. What they say is, that we really ought not to make the concessions in such a way as to give a sense of grievance to the men who do not get them. They put the case of the local man who, when he looks at the 2s. a week special pay, the subsistence allowance, the leave with pay given while the men are trying to find houses, the removal expenses, and the 6d. a day for travelling, says, "What about me?" I quite understand the situation. I will only say this: Supposing we had to take some of these locally entered men who are now in our service and send them to Devonport, so that they had to leave their wives and children and sever all their local associations, we would certainly do what we could for them in order to meet the special circumstances of the case. If the day should ever come when I or my successors have to ask such men to go to Devonport we will give them similar consideration.
Attention was called to the bonus. We are told that an Englishman gets 4s. and 1777 a Scotsman 3s., and the question is asked, "Why this differentiation" Really that is not a fair way of looking at it. Some of these so-called Englishmen have come from Scotland. It is not a question of Englishmen and Scotsmen. The reason why some men are getting 3s. is that the local time rate which they were being paid was 1s. beyond the ordinary rate for the dockyard. Therefore they get 3s. instead of 4s. It is really as broad as it is long. My hon. Friend made a good point, however, when he said, "You refused the bonus to bricklayers because they were getting above the local rate, but since that time the local rate has been raised." If that can be established the men have a case for the same bonus as the others. To the extent that the local rate has been levelled up they should get such part of the bonus as was withheld on that ground. My right hon. Friend particularly appealed on the question of the 6d. a day granted to transferees in respect of the time occupied in travelling. This is the position: There is not enough housing accommodation in the district, and the men who live at Dumfermline and Kirkcaldy in the one direction, and the men who live at Edinburgh in the other, whether they are local men or transferees, get free railway facilities. The transferees in addition to that, in the circumstances I have mentioned, get 6d. a day. My right hon. Friend contends that that gives a real sense of grievance. I will go into that matter again. I cannot give an undertaking; it does not rest with me; I am only one member of the Board, and in any case the Treasury must be consulted. But if it is conceded, it must be on this understanding: Directly there is housing accommodation at Rosyth, and I hope to live to see the day, if these men desire to live at Kirkcaldy, by all means let them; it is a free country; but in that case they will have to give up the 6d. I think that is perfectly fair. I will undertake to look into the matter again on that understanding, and if my right hon. Friend cares to put down a question for early next week I will give a definite answer one way or the other on that point. Beyond that I cannot go at the present time.
§ Mr. ADAMSONThere is one point the right hon. Gentleman has failed to notice 1778 —the case of men who are getting only 2s. a week bonus and the case of men who are getting only 1s. a week bonus.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAIf that is so, it is because they are receiving in our employment a time-rate more than the local rate, and to the extent that that is so their bonus has been reduced. If my hon. Friend can show me that that is not so, that they are not getting more than the local rate, they must get the full bonus.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Subsequent Resolutions read a second time, and agreed to.
§ Postponed Resolutions agreed to.