§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ 3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,544,742, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland." [NOTE.—£1,000,000 has been voted on account.]
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTI desire to raise a subject of great—I might almost say fundamental—importance as regards secondary education in Scotland. It is raised apropos of the new university Ordinance dealing with regulations as to preliminary examinations which now lies on the Table of this House. At first sight it might seem that the university Ordinance was not germane to this Vote, but the aspect of it with which I wish to deal is entirely that aspect of it that affects secondary education in Scotland. I hope to show that it not merely affects secondary education; it really interpenetrates through the whole subject of secondary education. This Ordinance deals with the regulations as to the preliminary examination for the four Scottish universities—that is to say, the method whereby entrance to the university is secured. The preliminary examination, or system, or whatever it is, that controls entrance to the universities is really the link between secondary and higher-grade schools and the universities. It is a thing which does not concern the universities alone; it is a 1141 thing which concerns secondary education; it is really the keystone in the arch, lying between secondary education on the one side and universities on the other. If I desire to prove the relations between the two, and the extent to which this particular matter affects secondary education. I think I need do no more than recall the Report of the Universities Commission which was made in the' year 1900. The University Commissioners were a body appointed by the Scottish Universities Act of 1889. They were appointed in order to carry out that Act, and to put into force its provisions. Their function has now been fulfilled, the mandate is exhausted, and that body has ceased to exist. But that was the body that carried the Act into operation, and was the body which made the existing Regulations which control entrance to our universities; and in their Report, made in the year 1900, they state that they had exhaustively considered this question of preliminary examination so far as it concerned the development of secondary education in Scotland.
At that time our universities in Scotland were doing a large amount of work which was not strictly university work. You had the junior and middle classes in Latin and Greek and mathematics, which were really not university work at all, but which were the work of a secondary school. The Commissioners, at the first step, were confronted with this problem of drawing a clear line of demarcation between the province of the universities and the province of secondary education. They were confronted with the task of erecting some barrier, or some line of demarcation between the secondary schools and the universities which would secure that every person who entered the university had received a satisfactory preliminary education that would prepare him to derive full benefit from the instruction provided in the university. They considered the question at that time of establishing a barrier in the form of a stiff examination, but they decided not to adopt that course. They decided that it was far too drastic, that it would operate with great hardship in view of the then development of education in Scotland. It must be confessed that the condition of secondary education in Scotland at that time was not adequate. There was nothing to fill the gap, or to fill the part which the junior classes in the university had played for many years. The essence of their pronouncement was this: 1142
The first condition of erecting a barrier at the university gate is the existence of an adequate system of secondary education, and we have satisfied ourselves that at this time the provision of secondary education throughout the country is not as yet sufficient to satisfy that condition.They, therefore, drew up a system for controlling entrance to the universities, and that system is embodied in the existing ordinance which it is now sought to replace. The system which they instituted then was frankly and avowedly a provisional system in view of the then imperfect development of secondary education in Scotland. There were two features of it. There was, first of all, the preliminary examination, which might be taken in stages, and need not be taken all at once; and, secondly, there was the provision fixing the standard of the preliminary examination which controls entrance to the universities, to be no less than the then standard of the leaving certificate provided by the Scottish Education Department. The then leaving cerficate was taken as the minimum standard for the examination which controlled entrance to the universities. I want to make it clear that the provision then made by the Commissioners in the ordinance which now governs the universities of Scotland, was in their view a wholly provisional arrangement, and not a final determination of the subject. Their view was that when secondary education had developed to a higher level, the whole subject should be reviewed in regard to the new development of secondary education. I desire to quote a passage from the Report of the Scottish University Commission made in 1900 to show that in their view the provisions which were then made governing the entrance to the university were entirely temporary, and, to be regarded as provisional and not permanent. They said "We believe—"
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)So far as I have been able to gather from the hon. Member's remarks his arguments only touch the question as to whether the leaving certificate of secondary schools in Scotland is a sufficiently high standard for entrance to the universities. I do not think he has carried it any further. I do not wish to be pedantic as to points of Order or to prevent useful discussion, but I am very much afraid that the hon. Member's argument is developing into one which is covered by Vote 8 and deals with universities throughout the United Kingdom. I do not know 1143 whether there is anyone on the Front Bench sufficiently acquainted with the matter to answer the criticisms which the hon. Member desires to make. I do not want to take too narrow a view, but I must safeguard myself for the future by the protest I have made.
§ Mr. TENNANTOn the point of Order. I understand that my hon. Friend is directing his arguments mainly to a criticism of the Ordinance which is now before Parliament.
§ Mr. TENNANTThat is an ingenious method of bringing it into order.
§ Mr. TENNANTI do not want to impute any motives. This Ordinance is a matter which has to be dealt with, if at all, by this House by means of an Address to His Majesty praying that he may be pleased or not pleased to issue an Order in Council putting it in force. I submit that as Secretary for Scotland I have no real jurisdiction in the matter except in so far as I am a member of the Privy Council and of the Committee of Education of the Privy Council, and in that capacity I am one of a number of others. I have no control over these matters in the sense that I am presumed to have control over the Board of Agriculture.
§ Sir H. CRAIKIt goes before the University Committee of the Privy Council. Are you a member of that Committee?
§ Mr. TENNANTNo, but of the Education Committee.
§ Sir H. CRAIKIt has nothing to do with this.
§ Mr. TENNANTExcuse me, it has. I think my hon. Friend is mistaken. Being only a member of that body, I have no real jurisdiction, and I submit it cannot be discussed.
Mr. SCOTTI think the right hon. Gentleman has raised a fresh point of Order, and I will deal with the two separately.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI will hear the hon. Member.
Mr. SCOTTWith regard to the point which you, Sir, raised, rather tentatively, I think, as to whether a discussion of the 1144 aspect of this ordinance as it affects secondary education is in order or not, let me put this point: There are three classes of education in Scotland, preliminary, secondary, and university education. There must be some line of demarcation between each of those, and this ordinance raises the line of demarcation between secondary and university education. At present the line of demarcation is fixed by reference to the leaving certificate examination, and the standard must be not lower than the standard of a pupil who has completed his course of education at the secondary school. This ordinance completely reverses that and enables a new standard for entrance to the university to be fixed. I submit that secondary education in Scotland is profoundly affected by the standard of entrance to the university, and if that standard is changed there will be profound changes in the whole of secondary education in Scotland in order to conform with that new standard and to prepare pupils to enter the universities. I do not propose to discuss the matter at all so far as it affects purely university matters, but to confine it to that aspect which concerns secondary education. With regard to the wholly different point of Order raised by the right hon. Gentleman, as to the proper procedure for raising this question, certainly, if it can be done, it is to move that a humble Address be presented to His Majesty, asking him to withhold his consent. Whether that is done or not, after the Ordinance leaves the House and goes to the Privy Council, my right hon. Friend, though he has not a determining voice, will yet have a powerful say in this matter. He is the guardian and custodian of secondary education, and if it is true, as I contend it is, that secondary education is affected by this Ordinance, then it is his duty, as the head of the Department, to look into the matter and to make such representations as he thinks desirable to the Privy Council. That is clearly not only within his province, but it is his duty. Therefore, I submit I am in order in raising the matter in the limited extent to which I propose to do so.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI observe that the hon. Member has himself put down a notice of Motion that an Address be presented to His Majesty, praying him to withhold his consent to the Ordinance, and I suppose he hopes to get a day for its discussion.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThere are other opportunities. Clearly a discussion of that is not in order on this Vote. Any discussion which the hon. Member desires to make with regard to secondary schools, as to whether there is a sufficient number of pupils, and whether they are taking advantage of proceeding to the universities, and also the question of the leaving certificates, would be in order. The standard which the universities set for entrance, and matters relating thereto, obviously cannot be in order in discussing Votes which relate to the elementary and secondary schools. In so far as the hon. Member can keep himself to discussing secondary schools and their relation to the entrance to universities, his remarks will be in order. I am most desirous, on this one day devoted to Scottish Estimates, not to be pedantic in points of Order, and with that warning I will allow the hon. Member to continue.
Mr. SCOTTI propose now to read the quotation which I was about to give when the point of Order was raised. It is from the Report of the Scottish Universities Commission, made in the year 1900, with reference to the system of controlling entrance to the universities. They state:
We believe this to be the best arrangement that can be made in the present condition of secondary education in Scotland, but we should think it far from satisfactory if it were to be regarded as final and permanent. The object of all such arrangements should be to secure that before he begins his university course a boy should have been for a certain number of years under good and trained teaching. This cannot be secured by a mere examination, although an examination at the end of the school course may be a very useful test of his training. We do not consider that either the entrance examination or a certificate which can be obtained in single subjects can be an adequate test of school training, and we do not think it desirable that the junior classes should be a permanent part of the university equipment. In both these respects, therefore, the regulations we have framed may be usefully revised when good secondary schools have been made available throughout Scotland.In the years that have passed since that pronouncement we have had most remarkable developments of secondary education throughout Scotland. The hon. Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities (Sir H. Craik) has, although he sits on the opposite side, it must be confessed, played a large and beneficent part in the development of secondary education in Scotland. I think he was the inaugurator of the leaving certificate examination which has now attained such importance, and the good work which he inaugurated, and which has been developed by his suc- 1146 cessors, has completely changed the whole aspect of affairs with regard to secondary and higher education in Scotland.
§ 8.0 P.M.
Mr. SCOTTThat is a matter of opinion. I believe that there has been a very remarkable and very satisfactory development of secondary education in Scotland. I believe it can be usefully maintained that the time has now come when this scheme may be revised chiefly on account of the manifold new problems specially concerned with secondary education which have cropped up and emerged during the War, and which will confront us immediately after the War. Who is to do it? Who is to revise this demarcation of secondary education? Who is to say when a pupil in a secondary school has attained such a stage of proficiency and of general education that he is capable of benefiting to the full from a university course? I submit that that is a point which ought to be defined, not by the representatives of the universities alone, but by a much wider body embracing representatives of the whole educational system of the country. This is a point which does not concern the universities alone: it concerns equally secondary education and those who have a stake and an interest in secondary education and are engaged in carrying it out. These ought to have a voice in settling this line of demarcation. By whom has this new Ordinance recasting the whole system been submitted? It has been submitted not by any educational authority in the country, not by any body on which the interests of secondary education are represented, but by the four University Courts of Scotland Far be it from me to say anything detrimental to the University Courts of Scotland. On occasion I would be prepared to defend the University Courts against some charges. I say, however, that a Court consisting predominantly of university professors with life appointments is not a proper body to determine when the work of the secondary school has been completed. How would this new Ordinance change the position as regards secondary schools? There are many subjects which might be discussed on the proper occasion, but I will confine myself to the one aspect concerning secondary education. In the existing Ordinance, the minimum standard entitling a pupil to enter the university is fixed as the standard of the leaving certificate examination at the time the Ordi- 1147 nance was made. What is the new standard proposed to be set up by this Ordinance? It shall be the duty of the body appointed by the University Courts to fix their own standard without any reference to secondary education at all. That is among their duties. In Clause 6 (3) we come to their powers. They have powers
to accept passes on the standards of particular grades in the leaving certificate examination of the Scottish Education Department as equivalent to passes on the corresponding standards in the preliminary examination—Mark this—provided the Board is satisfied that the standards in the leaving certificate examination are not lower than the corresponding standards in the preliminary examination.That reverses the whole position. Under the present system the leaving certificate is the minimum standard, and the preliminary examination is to be not lower than the leaving certificate. But under the new standard proposed to be set up the courts can fix a standard of their own, but they may accept the leaving certificate if satisfied that it is not lower than the preliminary. There is nothing to prevent the preliminary from being much lower than the leaving certificate. There is no safeguard whatever in this Ordinance against that. Therefore we might have some reactionary court fixing a standard which would bring us back to the old evil days when the universities were doing the work of the secondary schools, when the universities might be poaching on the province of secondary education to the detriment of a sound educational system in Scotland such as we now have. I contend, by reversing the position in the way they have done, they have fundamentally affected the position of secondary education in Scotland. Obviously this is a matter which ought not to be determined by the courts alone as it is determined in this Ordinance. This is an Ordinance which has been framed by the courts entirely on their own responsibility. It is a matter in regard to the framing of which the right hon. Gentleman ought to have a full voice. He is the custodian and guardian of secondary education in Scotland, and I submit that it is not only his province, but his duty to secure that in whatever Ordinance is passed the magnificent 1148 structure of secondary education which has been built up during the past generation should be adequately safeguarded and protected. The Commission which framed the existing system of entrance to the university has now completed its function; it is defunct. Let there be a new Commission appointed by the right hon. Gentleman, or whoever is the proper authority, representing not merely the universities, but also the interests of secondary education, and indeed of all the educational interests concerned, and let this matter be deferred until that Commission has presented its report. There is in the Ordinance the germ of a better state of affairs—the germ of the true course of development. Among the powers given to the University Courts is the following:To enter into negotiations with the Scotch Education Department for the purpose of framing an agreement for co-operation in respect of the conduct or correlation of the preliminary and leaving certificate examinations.That is as it should be—consultation between the University authorities and the Scottish Education Department. But that useful suggestion, that germ, as I have described it, is immediately assassinated by a germicide which follows in the next sentence—Provided that such agreement shall not become operative until it has been approved by a joint Resolution in which the four University Courts shall have concurred.Therefore this agreement between the Scottish Board of Education and the Universities for a scheme satisfactory to both to control the entrance to the Universities has got to run the gauntlet, not only of the Entrance Board set up by the Ordinance, but also of the four separate University Courts. It will probably never survive that process. I agree that the time has arrived for a revision. I think I have said enough to show that there are involved interests which have not been sufficiently taken into consideration in this Ordinance. My right hon. Friend suggested that the proper course of procedure would be to move an address. I have a Motion down for that purpose, but I do not know whether it will be possible to move it. That is the constitutional procedure; but the Government, under the stress of the War, have taken all the time of the House, and it is impossible to move that address unless the right hon. Gentleman uses his influence with the Prime 1149 Minister to secure that time be provided. I suggest that there is evidence of a general desire on the part of Scottish Members that this matter should at least be postponed. Last week there was a question addressed to the right hon. Gentleman by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. E. Wason), who is a very representative man on the Liberal side of the House. The same question appeared also in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger), whom I am glad to see in the Chair on this occasion. In that question it was stated that there are differences of opinion with regard to the terms of the Ordinance and the propriety of proceeding with a matter of such importance at the present time. I suggest that that question, asked by two such representative Members, is in itself evidence of a general desire in the matter. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman as head of the Education Department whether he can give us any guarantee that the interests of secondary education will be adequately safeguarded, and, failing that, if he cannot give us a guarantee that the matter will be postponed, whether he will promise to use his influence with the Prime Minister to secure a day, or at any rate an opportunity, for the discussion of a matter so profoundly affecting the interests of secondary education in Scotland.
§ Sir R. FINLAYI desire to say a few words with regard to the effect which the hon. Member opposite apprehends this new Ordinance might have on secondary education in Scotland. I hope to be able to satisfy him and the Committee that instead of having any disadvantageous effect it will have an advantageous effect on that great cause in which Scotland takes so much interest. I thoroughly agree with the hon. Member as to the importance of the subject. It is perfectly true, as he said, that some time ago, early in the last century, the Scottish Universities usurped to a great extent the position of the secondary schools, and that that has been remedied by the enormous extension of secondary education, in which my hon. Friend the Member for the Sister Universities (Sir H. Craik) has taken a distinguished part. I desire to say a very few words in regard to these provisions for secondary education with reference to this Ordinance, and the functions of the university. I believe it is impossible to 1150 define the functions of any preliminary examination such as the examination to which this Ordinance refers better than if the words used by the Commissioners in the Report of 1900, to which my hon. Friend has already referred. On page 14 of that Report, speaking of the preliminary examination, the Report says:
It ought not, therefore, to exact from candidates who have been reasonably well-taught any special preparation or effort, but—Quoting Matthew Arnold—ought to be such as a scholar of fair ability and proper diligence may at the end of his school course come to with a quiet mind, and without a painful preparatory effort tending to relaxation and torpor as soon as the effort is over.I am sure these are words that appeal to us who have passed examinations, and I believe they strike the one note of what a preliminary examination for the university should be. My hon. Friend is much concerned as to the possible lowering of the standard under this new Ordinance which is to be adopted for the purpose of the preliminary examination. I think I can satisfy him that he is mistaken in supposing that any such debasement of the standard of the preliminary examination is possible. It is, of course, in the very highest degree improbable—I think he has admitted it—that any entrance board would make any attempt to debase the standard of the preliminary examination in the manner which he suggested as possible. I think I can satisfy my hon. Friend that it is not only improbable, but that it is impossible. The Ordinance of 1892 provided that the standard for the preliminary examination should not be lower than that of the leaving certificate examination as existed when the Ordinance of 1892 was passed. My hon. Friend went on to point out that that proper provision does not appear in this new Ordinance. That is perfectly true. The provision does even better. The Ordinance of 1892 provided that the standard of the preliminary examination should not be lower than that in use in 1892 in regard to the leaving certificate. That secured that the standard for the preliminary examination should be equal to what the leaving certificate standard was in 1892. If my hon. Friend will look at the heads of this proposed new Ordinance, beginning with head 13, and running over 14, 15, 16 and 17, he will find that there is this provision—that it occurs over and over again. I will read the words taken from the first paragraph, in which it occurs as a sample of the whole. See head 13, Clause 2. I shall 1151 have to make a similar protest in regard to other subjects. The Clause reads:In English the standard shall not be lower than that accepted at the date of the approval of this Ordinance for a pass in English in the preliminary examination.They make exactly the same provision for the other subjects with which the preliminary examination deals. My hon. Friend will see that that provision effectively secures that the standard for the preliminary examination shall not sink below the standard required by the Ordinance of 1892. On the contrary, in all probability in nearly every case it will secure that this standard is higher. If, as is the case of the preliminary examination at the time this Ordinance comes into force, it puts up the standard of the leaving certificate in 1892, it inevitably follows, from the provision to which I have called attention, that it is absolutely impossible that the standard of the preliminary examination under this new Ordinance should ever sink below the level of that standard to which all preliminary examinations had to conform since 1892. The matter, I think, is perfectly plain in the provisions of this Section to which I have called attention. If my hon. Friend has looked at the Ordinance he will recognise that there is no ground for apprehension on what, no doubt, is a matter of very great importance.There is another point in the bearing on this Ordinance on secondary education to which my right hon. Friend has called attention—the power to negotiate conferred upon the entrance board which is created by this Ordinance with the Scottish Education Department, with a view to correlation between the preliminary examination and the leaving certificate examination. That is to be found under Clause 6 of the proposed Ordinance, head 4. It is so important that I should like to read the words:
To enter into negotiations with the Scottish Education Department for the purpose of framing an agreement for co-operation in respect of the conduct or correlation of the preliminary and leaving certificates examination; provided that such agreement shall not become operative until it has been approved by a joint resolution in which the four university courts shall have concurred.As regards the first part of that Clause, it it perfectly clear that communications and negotiations with the Scottish Education Department will be enormously facilitated by having this one entrance board to carry them on. Negotiations will be much more 1152 effectively conducted by that one entrance board, representing the four universities, than it could be with negotiations carried on with each university separately. The object of this Clause is agreement on that most important subject of co-operation in respect to the conduct and correlation of preliminary and leaving certificate examinations—agreement between the Scottish Education Department and the universities. The preliminary steps, as I have shown, are enormously facilitated by having this one board. But, it may be said, the agreement, when it is drawn up, has not to have effect until the four university courts have passed a resolution concurring. Could anything be more reasonable? The university must have a voice in its own affairs. You cannot impose upon them any document embodying terms unless that agreement has been come to. Of course, an Act of Parliament may do anything; but I submit it would be in the highest degree unreasonable to attempt to take from the universities that power of dealing with a matter which so intimately concerns them. I have the highest esteem for the Scottish Education Department. I have in days past seen a good deal of its working, but I do protest against the idea that the Scottish Education Department has to have control of the four university courts. The universities have taken a long step forward by this Ordinance, which will facilitate co-operation and correlation, as regards the certificates to which reference has been made. My hon. Friend is quite mistaken when he supposes that there is anything in the nature of a retrograde step in that which this Ordinance promotes. On the contrary, it is a step forward, and a long step forward. I think it would be in the highest degree unreasonable to obliterate the second part of the fourth Section of head 6, to which I have been referring, which provides that the universities must be parties to the agreement before it takes effect.There is one other matter, which relates to the leaving certificate and the position it is to occupy in regard to the universities, on which I should like to say a word. Apprehension has been expressed that the new Ordinance puts the leaving certificate in some way or other in a less advantageous position in regard to entry to the university than it enjoyed before. I believe that is a complete mistake. The Ordinance of 1892 conferred on the universities power to accept the leaving certificate. They were not forced to accept 1153 it. It conferred on them power to accept it as a substitute for the preliminary examination, and it conferred on them also the power to accept any other examination they pleased as a substitute. The new Ordinance fuses into one Clause these two provisions which cover two Clauses in the Ordinance of 1892. The new provision is contained under Clause 5. It confers on the entrance board the following duties:
To decide as to the examinations which, in accordance with the provisions of this Ordinance, it shall recognise as entitling to exemption from the whole or part of the preliminary examination; to take such steps as may be necessary to secure that examinations so recognised shall be equivalent in scope and standard to the preliminary examination; and to publish from time to time a list of recognised examinations.The position of the leaving certificate is not in the slightest degree prejudiced. Before, it was optional for the universities to accept it instead of the preliminary examination; it remains optional still, but it is in no worse position than it was under the Ordinance of 1892. This Ordinance is one that has been framed with the greatest possible care, after years of consideration and negotiation, and after the views of all the bodies and persons qualified to shed light on the subject had been obtained, and I hope I have been enabled to satisfy my hon. Friend and the Committee generally that there is no ground whatever for the apprehension that it will affect secondary education in Scotland otherwise than beneficially. Do not let us throw away the result which has been arrived at after the labour of so many years; do not let us part with the only possible solution of a difficult question. It is perfectly true that the provision of 1892 was recognised as being only temporary and subject to reconsideration as secondary education in Scotland developed. That reconsideration has now been given, and I do put it to the Committee that this new Ordinance will be beneficial to secondary education in Scotland, and there is no ground whatever for the apprehension which has been expressed as to any disadvantageous results flowing from it. I do put it to the Committee that it is not reasonable to suggest that Scottish universities should be made subject to the dictation of any Department, even so distinguished a Department as the 1154 Scottish Education Department. They must be allowed to have a voice, and a controlling voice, as to the terms on which entrance may be obtained to a university. You must always have a preliminary examination. It can never be replaced entirely by the leaving certificate, because there will always be a considerable number of cases of persons desiring to go to the university who have not had the advantage of education at a secondary school. The improvements in the constitution of the Board, in the power to control and set papers and to provide for uniform papers to all the four universities is most valuable, and, under these circumstances, I hope my hon. Friend will recognise that his apprehensions are not well founded.
§ Mr. HOGGEThe right hon. and learned Member who has just sat down is, I believe, my representative as a matter of fact in this House, as I have always had the pleasure of voting for the other candidate, when there was one, but never succeeded in returning him, and therefore, if I differ from the right hon. and learned Member in the attitude he has taken up in regard to this matter, I hope that he will forgive an unrepentant constituent. I do not look on this matter in the same way as the right hon. and learned Member, and I do not propose really to follow the rather detailed criticism of those Ordinances now, because I hope my hon. Friend will press this to another conclusion by moving for an Address to His Majesty, when we Scottish Members can discuss it after eleven o'clock some night, if a House can be kept for us for that purpose. I want to raise a cognate subject connected with the Ordinance which I pressed upon my right hon. Friend's predecessor in office as Secretary for Scotland, which was not taken advantage of then, and which I want to renew now that we have a different occupant of that office. I think the time has arrived, and is in fact overdue, when another Royal Commission ought to make an investigation into the whole system of Scottish education. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Govan still remains in the House among the few faithful, and I know this is a subject in which he is also very interested, and for which he feels there is a pressing need. Therefore, I am glad that he is in association with the Secretary for Scotland, which gives him special access to his ear, and I hope he will take the opportunity 1155 of impressing upon his right hon. Friend that the occasion is opportune for an investigation into our whole system of Scottish education.
The other day in this House there was a long and very interesting Debate on English education. In that Debate regrets were expressed that in England they have not the advantages we have in Scotland, and it occurred to me, in listening to that Debate, that we might get into the habit of making too much of the phrase that we had educational advantages in Scotland superior to other parts of the country, and that because we thought that to be true we might leave uncriticised and unconsidered a system which is growing up in Scotland, owing to the many changes that are made in our educational system there, without any reference to Parliament at all by the Scottish Board of Education, which, we all remember, is not even quite under my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, because it has got a separate head, without any reference to the Scottish Secretary directly or to this House. Changes have grown up which are detrimental to the best interests of Scottish education. Our elementary school system in Scotland, I think, is very good and has improved out of hand, except that I do not think the universal use of inspection in our elementary schools in place of the old habit of examination is quite the best method of dealing with the progress of the child in the elementary stages of its education. I realise at once that examination frequently turns down pupils in our elementary schools, or at any rate frequently did in the past, who might reasonably have gone up. On the other hand, it sent a number up who ought to have been kept down. A system of inspection which is extremely casual means that in a great number of our elementary schools the children are moved about in a way which does not contribute to the maturer education of that child at all. I know schools in Scotland where His Majesty's inspectors from the Scottish Education Department have never been in the school for a couple of years at a time. The process now is that the inspector comes in and talks to pupils, perhaps looks at the copybooks and examines the work, and then gives a general impression of what he has seen. I know cases in which pupils have been moved up and down after an inspection by one of these inspectors who has not 1156 been a quarter of an hour in that particular school. I do not think that is right, and it is a kind of thing that may help to damage the very just reputation which Scotland has got for having a thorough education in the elementary stages.
With regard to secondary education, I think that too much has been made in that respect in an attempt to centralise secondary education too far away from the homes of the children. This is a subject which has been discussed frequently before, and which could very well be discussed now at very great length. I do not propose to discuss it at length now, because at a time like this we may not get the same consideration of the question, but I do not want to lose sight of it. In our secondary system we have those schools so far removed from the homes of the children that they are being educated under circumstances which do not conduce to the best training of their minds. You have young children lodging in some of our central towns in Scotland for five days a week, and some children have to cycle long distances, owing to the fact that the schools are situated a long way from their homes. While I think a great deal can be said for our system of secondary education in Scotland, I have always regretted that in our ordinary village schools we cannot continue now the education we previously had in Scotland, and I regret that it is necessary to shift the children about in this way in order to mass them together to secure this secondary education. I do not say that the old system is the better one, but I say that the transition is too acute when it means that the children have to travel long geographical distances to get the advantages of this secondary education. From whatever point of view you approach the question we have just been discussing, I think it has a bearing on the whole of this problem. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities (Sir E. Finlay) said that the Education Department ought not to have control of the portals of the universities. I am not sure that they should not. In Scotland, what we want is to link up our system of education more completely than we have ever done before. We want it to be a perfectly easy process through the elementary school to the university, and, when you have conflicting authorities, as you have in the university codes, you are bound to have problems arising which, after all, do not conduce to 1157 a proper machinery for perfecting your system of education in Scotland. The leaving certificate examinations were an easier way than the preliminary examinations, because it was frequently necessary for anybody sitting in the preliminary examination, owing to the fact that they were poor, so far as this world's goods are concerned, to have the preliminary and the other examinations at the same time. Consequently, you have a couple of standards set up.
I do think that we want to be very careful. On the one hand, you have the Scottish Education Department raising the level of the leaving certificate to a certain standard, and you have in competition the university courts saying that a certain standard must be put upon the preliminary examination. There are a great many questions concerned with the teacher which it is proper should be touched upon inside a period of twelve months. There is the fact that it is extremely difficult to get the best equipped teachers in Scotland to go into the rural districts and take the headmasterships of the small schools. I suppose hon. Members must have received many requests from teachers suggesting that they were about the best persons possible to occupy the new headmastership of Gretna. I have had a large number of letters myself asking who has that post in gift, or the party to whom they should apply, and suggesting that their qualifications are probably better than any other person we know. Now the salary offered at Gretna is less than £300—I think it is £250—but I have been surprised in looking at the qualifications and testimonials—and some of the applicants I know were at the university at the same time as myself—those men are forced into the posts in our rural districts at a very small salary, and they leave the larger towns with all the advantages that accrue from being in those towns, and it is going to be increasingly difficult to staff the schools in those places unless some change is made in the position of the teacher. I know that the teacher's salary is governed in many places by the School Board and the School Board Rate, and that many of our School Boards are the last people in the world to whom you would trust educational matters, although they are perfectly competent in the spending of their money. There are questions of that kind connected with the teacher, and a great many more which could properly be elaborated.
1158 The Scottish Educational Department will require to give increasing attention to the technical and industrial side of education. I gladly acknowledge the work that they have already done in that direction. Scotland is going to change so far as its population and its industrial life is concerned. You have growing up on the East side of Scotland, as the result of the provision of the new naval base and all that it entails, an enormous population of an entirely different kind, and that population will require to be catered for with a different type of education. That will also be the case if there remains after the War any substantial factory or industry in the neighbourhood of Gretna, and there are bound to remain on the West side of Scotland as the result of all the activities we have there now certain new industries for a considerable time. That kind of thing requires to be looked into. There are many men interested in education who could give their attention to this matter at a time when they are not worried about the effects that the changes may have. A great many of the male members of the staff in our Scottish schools are in the Army, as they are in other parts of the country, and temporary arrangements have been made for teaching. In the big cities the schools are often in the possession of the military, and you have a provision by which the children of two schools get their education in one school by taking relays morning and afternoon.
After the War we shall be face to face with a situation which will require a different kind of education from that which has been given before, and I am sure my right hon. Friend would be doing a service to Scottish education if he did something in this direction. I have suggested a Royal Commission, but I am not sure if it would be the best way. My right hon. Friend, as the result of the knowledge gained by the inquiries of certain Committees which have been set up by the English Education Department, may have something to suggest. I do not want us to forget the subject of education in Scotland simply because we have a tradition as a nation for being provided with excellent educational facilities. We must not get it into our heads that we can live on that tradition. Scotland has the brains, the energy, and the aptitude to meet the new conditions, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will not leave us in the wake of the English Education Department, but that he will 1159 realise that there are educational problems which require to be dealt with in Scotland and that he will give his attention to them.
§ Mr. TENNANTThe Committee will have gathered that I did not think this was the moment for a discussion of the merits of the Ordinance, and that if it were to be discussed we should deal with it on a different occasion, but, inasmuch as a considerable amount of the time of the House has been taken up in discussing it, perhaps I ought to say that the Scottish Education Department views with some alarm the Ordinance in its present form. I have had the opportunity of consulting with my right hon. and learned Friend opposite (Sir R. Finlay) and have indicated to him that there was no intention on the part of the Government at the present to bring matters to a head, but that we would rather leave the Ordinance in suspense over the period of the Recess so that he might be able to confer with the universities he represents and the other two universities in order perhaps to have some modification which might be acceptable to the Scottish Education Department.
§ Sir R. FINLAYI will, of course, on behalf of the universities I have the honour to represent, most carefully consider any views which the Scottish Education Department entertain with regard to the scope of this Ordinance, but as at present advised, I think the Ordinance is one which ought' to pass in the form in which it stands. Of course, I shall most carefully consider and forward to the proper quarter any views of the Scottish Education Department with regard to possible modifications.
§ Mr. TENNANTI cannot hold out any hope that the Department which I represent will view or is likely to view with favour the Ordinance in its present form. That ought to be clearly understood. I can assure my hon. Friend who has just sat down (Mr. Hogge) that we recognise that these questions of education are of paramount importance, and the Government is setting up an inquiry, if that is the proper word—it is more a review—into the existing provisions for education on a national scale, and Scotland, so far from being neglected, is represented on that body, might I say, by myself, and others who will be our technical advisers.
§ Mr. TENNANTNo, not separate; it is education as a whole. We are anxious to have it particularly in that form in order that we may co-ordinate the machinery for the different parts of Great Britain. It is desirable that there should be no divorce in that respect as between the different parts of our country. That being so, I hope my hon. Friend will rest assured that these matters, particularly in relation to a reconstruction after the War, are not being lost sight of, but are really being taken by the forelock and that machinery is being put in motion without delay.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTI apologise to the Committee for intervening again. I think the announcement the right hon. Gentleman has made is satisfactory from the point of view of those who share my views, but there is just one little point I would like him to clear up. He suggested that the Ordinance should be suspended during the Recess. During the Recess it will pass out of the control of this House, for it is only under the control of this House for twelve weeks from the 1st of June, and the period during an adjournment counts, although a period during a Prorogation does not count—at least, that is my impression of the Statute, and I have looked it up. The right hon. Gentleman has also suggested that, as a result of his consultation with my right hon. Friend opposite, it might come up in a different form. Can he tell me whether this different Ordinance, with different terms in it, will be laid on the Table of the House, and whether it will again come before the House in such a form as to be under the control of the House? I think it ought, and I think it probably will; but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will enlighten us, if he is in a position to do so.
§ Mr. TENNANTI think I can relieve the fears of my hon. Friend by saying that no Ordinance can come into force unless an Order in Council is issued putting it into force. As regards any modification of it, I take it, and I take it my right hon. Friend opposite will agree, that modifications will require to be a new Ordinance and would therefore be under the control of this House as from the date when it was made.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI presume that as this matter requires to be very minutely examined, it will come before the Universities Committee for them to express their 1161 judgment upon it, especially as it may be issued in a modified form. On these terms I think those who hold views on both sides of this question will feel that many arguments which might have been adduced on one side and on the other need not now be put forward. I think the solution which the right hon. Gentleman proposes is a very fair one. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, however, not to be quite so sure that a Commission of Inquiry is always the best means of advancing education. Let him trust to the experience and skill of the people in the schools. Above all, I join most heartily with my hon. Friend from East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) in asking the right hon. Gentleman to do his best to raise the position, status, and emoluments of the teachers. I am perfectly certain that it is a very essential point, and if you get real enthusiasm and heartiness in the teachers you will do much more for the cause of education than you will do by Commissions or Committees, which are very liable to be dominated by men with fads of their own and peculiar ideas which they desire to introduce into schools as experiments.
§ Question put, and agreed to.