§ 42. Sir A. MARKHAMasked the Home Secretary whether he adheres to his policy 27 of interning any man of enemy birth where there is doubt of his conduct; whether he will reconsider his decision to release J. G. W. Grüban if evidence can be produced that he has sold German machines to the Commonwealth of Australia as of British make; and whether an official of the Ministry of Munitions appeared before the alien tribunal and asked for his internment?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Herbert Samuel)The only power of interning naturalised British subjects of enemy birth is that conferred by Regulation 14B of the Defence of the Realm Regulations; that Regulation applies only to cases where internment is required for the public safety or the defence of the realm, and I have not said anything beyond that. The charge referred to in the second part of the question was brought before the Advisory Committee, who found that it related to what happened before the War, and were of the opinion that it did not come within the scope of Regulation 14B. As regards the last part of the question, two persons on behalf of the Ministry of Munitions appeared before the Advisory Committee in support of the case for Griiban's internment. The Committee were, however, informed by the Ministry that the breaches of their Regulations, with which Grüban was charged, would be a matter for proceedings by the Ministry against Griiban's firm, if necessary, and that the Ministry did not desire that Grüban should" be punished by the Committee in respect of them. I would add, with regard to this case generally, that it has been repeatedly stated in the House that persons against whom internment orders are made under Regulation 14B have the right of appeal to the judicial Advisory Committee. When, as in this case, that Committee have given prolonged consideration to such an appeal, and have recommended that the internment should not be maintained, I should require to be satisfied that there were important new facts which the Committee had not had under their consideration before deciding to over-rule their recommendation.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMIs it the fact that the Committee sat three days to consider whether this man should or should not be interned, and is it also the fact that the Ministry of Munitions applied that this man should be interned and that a representative from the Munitions Department 28 made that request to the Committee, and, if so, why should there be any hesitation at all seeing that this man was an enemy alien when the War broke out? They ought to be interned.
§ Mr. SAMUELWith regard to the application from the Ministry of Munitions I have dealt with that in my previous reply. It is the case that the Advisory Committee sat for three days to hear this one case, and at the end were unanimously of opinion that he ought not to be interned.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMThe Committee ought to be abolished.
§ Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLWill the right hon. Gentleman lay the Report of the Advisory Committee on the Table, so that we can judge for ourselves?
§ Mr. SAMUELI will consider that suggestion.
§ Mr. FLAVINIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Advisory Committee dealing with Irish prisoners hear over a hundred cases per day and hear no evidence of any kind?
§ 43. Sir A. MARKHAMasked the Home Secretary what were the alleged public grounds on which J. G. W. Grüban was naturalised in September, 1914; whether he is aware that Grüban took no interest in any public affair except a welcome to the Kaiser; whether he is aware that Grüban was not engaged upon Government work when he was naturalised; and whether Grüban is still in possession of his Prussian military uniform?
§ Mr. SAMUELAs I have already stated, in answer to the hon. Baronet's question of the 25th July, the certificate of naturalisation was granted by my predecessor on the ground that Grüban was the head of a large business which it was considered important should be kept going, as it employed a considerable number — several hundreds — of British workpeople. If naturalisation had not been granted, it was understood that he would probably have to close down his works and discharge his workmen. I have no information that Grüban was engaged upon Government work when he was naturalised. As regards the last part of the question, it was alleged before the Advisory Committee, during the hearing of Grüban's appeal against the order for his internment, that he had been seen in 29 a Prussian military uniform. The Committee endeavoured to obtain evidence on the point, but none was forthcoming.
§ Mr. R. McNEILLDoes the right hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that it would be impossible for this business to be carried on without the naturalisation of this man?
§ Mr. SAMUELThat was the information before my predecessor.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that this man has had nothing to do with this business for a long time, and that he was fired out?
55. The hon. Baronet asked the Minister of Munitions if a solicitor was sent to the firm of Haigh, Grüban, and Company, Limited, to investigate into its conduct as a controlled munition firm, under the management of J. G. W. Grüban; whether the aforesaid solicitor reported many breaches of rules and regulations and the making of false returns; whether since Grüban left the firm in March last the Ministry have been satisfied with the conduct of the present management; and whether the Home Office have been informed of the experience of the Machine Tool Committee respecting Grüban?
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MUNITIONS DEPARTMENT (Dr. Addison)The affairs of this firm were specially investigated on behalf of the Ministry of Munitions by one of its officers, and his investigation disclosed certain departures from regulations and inaccuracies in return. A supervisor was subsequently appointed, and the Ministry are satisfied with the present conduct of the affairs of the firm. The Home Office have been fully informed of all the circumstances.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMDoes the right Bon. Gentleman admit that false returns were made by this man? If so, did his Department ask that he should be interned?
§ Dr. ADDISONThe man made a number of false returns—I am not sure that that is quite ah accurate way of putting it—a number of false statements, anyhow. The matter was submitted to the Committee, whose views were passed on to the Home Office.
§ Mr. PRINGLEWas this man prosecuted under the Munitions Act for making a false return and subjected to the penalty provided by that Act?
§ Dr. ADDISONI do not know about that. I do not know that he was liable to prosecution.
§ Mr. PRINGLEYes, for any false return.
§ Mr. G. TERRELLHave any steps been taken under the Trading With the Enemy Act to wind-up this company?
§ Dr. ADDISONA supervisor was put in to manage the business a long time ago.
§ Mr. FLAVINSeeing that these aliens get contracts, will the right hon. Gentleman explain why loyal Irishmen, although on the tender list, are not even invited to tender for contracts?