HC Deb 29 September 1915 vol 74 cc972-80

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Mr. PETO

I want to bring very shortly before the notice of the House a point which I raised at Question Time to-day, and which I have raised on several other occasions during the course of the War. Strong representations have been made to me, and I have no doubt to other hon. Members, that the men and officers serving in the merchant service find themselves at a grave disadvantage on the rare occasions on which they are able to go ashore owing to their having no badge or distinguishing mark to show that they are doing their duty and their share of the country's work in the present crisis. The matter of war badges in the merchant service was, I believe, one entirely in the hands and the discretion of the Board of Admiralty. At a later period it was taken over by the Board of Trade, and again the whole question of badges for war service was taken over by the Minister of Munitions. The present position with regard to the merchant service is not very clear. But I have the privilege of having present both the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, whose attendance this evening I have been very sorry to have to ask for after the long Debate, though I greatly appreciate it. As far as the Admiralty are concerned the point is a narrow one. I believe that these war badges are given to officers and men who are serving upon some of the ships, certainly upon the transports. Those who are serving upon other of the ships chartered by the Admiralty and who are engaged in coaling the Fleet and carrying munitions and on other services of that kind, as far as I am personally informed, had not had these war badges issued to them. Then the wide question arises, as to men serving in the merchant service—engaged perhaps in the transport of horses from New York to France, of beef for the French Armies, perhaps in the Argentine, also to ports in France, or of necessary stores or the very food on which our own civil population is existing—why these officers and men who are doing quite equal service are refused any recognition of the fact. It is the settled policy of the Government that they are not required to give up their seamen's duties and enlist in the Army in any capacity on land. It is recognised and agreed that they are doing better service where they are. Therefore I desire to ask those two right hon. Gentlemen in their Departments whether they cannot find out some way of satisfying what is a greatly felt want, and giving these men the opportunity of showing quite clearly that they are not slackers who are staying at home, but that they are men who are doing their share of the country's work?

11.0 P.M.

It is obvious that the manufacture of munitions, as well as the maintenance of the food supply of the country, could not possibly be carried on if it was not for our merchant service. It is also obvious, and there is no dispute on the point, that these men are suffering the perils of war. Many of them have been killed. Many of them have had to incur and undergo great hardships, and are doing very much more dangerous work than a great many men who have been enlisted in His Majesty's land forces. I will quote two letters which were recently received by the secretary of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild, explaining what the position of these men is when they come ashore without a distinguishing mark. One officer, the master of the "Wray Castle," St. Nazaire, wrote:— I would like to draw your attention to what both myself and my officers consider a great hardship. A man ashore at home, in safety, making shoes or clothes for the troops is entitled to a 'war badge' to show that he is doing 'his bit' for the Empire. Now, we are running between Montreal and St. Nazaire carrying live bullocks (about 1,000 a trip) for beef for the troops in the trenches; twice a month we are passing through the war zone at the risk of our lives, but we are not entitled to wear the war badge. Three months ago I was in London (where my home is) and an officious lady, on recruiting bent, came up to me and asked me 'Why I was not in khaki and could I not do something for King and country?' The second one I want to quote is from Manchester, and is written by the third officer of the "Glendhu." He says:— I would like to speak of the recruiting meetings that are being held here. We are accosted by the recruiting sergeant on an average of three or four times a day. We were informed by a Government official on our arrival here that it would be useless for merchant service men to attempt to join the Army, but then when we are ashore people are not to know but what we are some of the many young men that are loafing about here, and although our answer is always accepted as satisfactory, it makes a chap feel such a bally ass in front of the crowd that is always looking on. I have a number of similar letters, and more are coming in. I only want, further, to deal with the Board of Trade's official objection in their reply to the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. In effect, they base their objection upon two points—the enormous number of badges to be issued, and the difficulty of their being transferred to persons who have no right to wear the badges. Both are very strong objections, but I think they are not insuperable. I suggest that there is a way out of the difficulty. It is not every merchant seaman, nor engineer, fireman, or officer of a merchant ship, who has occasion to require this badge. There is no need to indiscriminately distribute it all round. I suggest that the badges should be distributed with regard to firemen, seamen, and engineers through their union, or to those men who are not members of the unions, through harbour masters or other competent port authority. With regard to officers, the distribution could be made through the Imperial Merchant Service Guild and the Mercantile Marine Association, which, together, practically cover the whole of the masters and officers in the merchant service. These associations and unions know their members, and the harbour masters, before issuing the badge, would know the recipients to be genuine. Something further might be required, for undoubtedly there is some risk of the badge being issued to those who have no right to wear it, but I submit that in view of legislation passed in this House during the War, there could be no possible difficulty in passing a Bill simply to make it a penal offence for any persons to wear the Merchant Service War Badge or other distinguishing mark agreed upon unless properly entitled to do so. I suggest that a £5 penalty or something of that kind would probably meet the case. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that this produces a great sense of grievance. We all agree that these men are doing work which is second to none that is being rendered in this War. Again and again independent letters are received showing that this grievance is genuinely felt, and it is really for the right hon. Gentleman to find some way out of the difficulty in order that the work of the country may be carried out in all its details. I do hope, having taken this opportunity of bringing the matter to their attention, that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will look at it from a broad point of view, not with regard to any section of the men employed, but with regard to the whole service, and give them some token of the valuable services they are rendering to the country.

Mr. BARNES

I desire to support the appeal which has been made by the hon. Member for Devizes. Like him, I fail to see why War badges are issued to workmen only and not to men who are incurring a great deal more risk. I believe that the badges are much appreciated by the workmen, and in fact I know they are so appreciated. There are many workmen who would have been quite willing to go to the War but who are prevented from doing so owing to the nature of their calling. The badge indicates the fact that they are here not by choice, but because they are working just as well in the interests of the country as if they were at the front. If that is true of the workmen, it is true also of a great many people who have not yet obtained badges. I understand that the badges are served out to the men on the transports in the direct employment of the Admiralty, and no doubt that is very well so far as it goes. I fail to see why they should be refused to the men in the merchant service who are running, I will not say as great a risk, but are certainly running very great risks. I have just been across the Atlantic, and passed through the submarine zone twice. I went out on the "Adriatic." I know that the men on it feel that they are suffering an injustice. I believe they had gone through the submarine zone about eight or nine times up to the time I crossed, which was some months ago. They consider that they should receive some recognition in consequence of the danger they are passing through. The hon. Gentleman has dealt with some of the difficulties that may be incidental to the issuing of the badges, and it may be that all of the men are not members of trade unions, but I do not think that applies so much to the mates, or masters, or engineers, who are, I believe, connected with one or other of the organisations. I know that is so in regard to the engineers of whom I can speak with some knowledge, since I am a member of one of the organisations that has a great many members at sea. There is another organisation that deals specifically with the sea-going engineers, I refer to the Marine Engineers' Association. One or other of those two bodies practically cover all sea-going engineers. There might be a small margin left out, but after the members of those organisations had been dealt with it would be very small. I earnestly support the appeal which has been made, and I hope that something may be done.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Captain Pretyman)

The Board of Trade do not complain for a moment of the way in which my hon. Friend has brought this matter forward. It is hardly necessary for me to endorse every word that they have said as to the position occupied by the officers and men of the mercantile marine in the national service at the present time. It is absolutely true that these men are not only serving the country but incurring very grave personal risk in doing so. As between those who are on Admiralty transports and those on purely mercantile vessels, I am rather inclined to think that the risk in the latter case is at least as great as in the former, because they have less opportunity of escort, and many of the voyages, particularly the coasting voyages, are extremely dangerous at the present time. Therefore I may say at once that so far as concerns the principle of putting the men of the mercantile marine on an equal footing with those who are serving the nation and demanding some badge by which passers-by may see that they are serving the nation, the Board of Trade are entirely in agreement with everything that has been said. But when you come to apply the principle to the mercantile marine you meet with difficulties. The question has been very carefully and most sympathetically examined. But the difficulties are very great indeed. It is quite easy to give these badges to the officers, and I quite accept what has been said as to the engineers, but I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that it is impossible to confine any issue of badges to any class in the mercantile marine. If the badges are to be issued they must be issued without distinction to all the officers, all the engineers, all the deckhands, all the firemen, and in fact to everybody concerned. It is impossible to look at the problem from any other aspect. That means that every man in the mercantile marine must have a right to the badge. When you come to deal with coasting voyages particularly, unlike the over-sea voyages, the men do not have to sign on through any official channel, and it is competent for the master of a vessel to engage a man merely for the voyage. Take, for instance, the particularly dangerous voyage at the present time from Newcastle to London. The master can take on a man merely for the voyage, and men who are competent hands might be taken on who simply desired to work their passage from Newcastle to London. Nobody knows what men of that kind might do with the badge. I am bound to say that very little evidence of any widespread feeling on the subject has reached the Board of Trade. I quite accept the letters which my hon. Friend has read as indisputable evidence that some regrettable incidents have occurred, and that a certain number of people have felt the want of these badges; but, as I say, the Board of Trade have no evidence of any widespread feeling on the point.

Mr. BARNES

The same thing was said about the issue of badges to the workmen.

Captain PRETYMAN

I am coming to the suggestion of the hon. Member (Mr. Peto), but I want to make my point first. I think it quite conceivable that we might, if we were to accept his suggestion as it stands, have the result that a great many of these badges would get into unauthorised hands, and I deprecate penal legislation in these matters. The hon. Member told us that in order to enable his pro- posal to be carried out penal legislation would be necessary. I think that we should have very serious complaints from the mercantile marine if it were found from the indiscriminate issue of these badges that a great many people were wearing them who had no right to do so. I think that would rightly cause very great resentment among the men of the mercantile marine. That is to be guarded against. My hon. Friend has made the sensible suggestion that the badges should only be issued through certain recognised bodies—the trade unions and the officials of the Board of Trade—to those who specially applied for them. I am sure he will see that the effect of that would be that there would be an unlimited scope for application, and it would be impossible for us to foresee to what extent that opportunity would be utilised. It might be that there would be no safeguard to that system—no safeguard against such men as I referred to, men engaged in coastal voyages from Newcastle to London—men who really wanted to get hold of a badge in order to sell it. Such a system would be greatly abused.

Still I do not wish to close the door to a consideration of the matter, and the particular suggestion which has been made by my hon. Friend who spoke last, endorsing what had been previously said, shall certainly be represented to the President of the Board of Trade, and it will be examined. We fully recognise that if the mercantile marine desire these badges they are fully entitled to them as a matter of principle—as fully as any other man employed on any munitions work. But there are very great difficulties in a considerable issue of badges of this description unless we are satisfied that the administration of the system would be really satisfactory, and not bring about greater evils than those which, I admit, to some extent follow from the present system, tinder which no badges at all are available for the purely mercantile marine.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara)

I think it is due to my hon. Friend that I should explain shortly the Admiralty Regulations in regard to the issue of these badges: exactly how the matter stands, and the method of those responsible for the distribution. The issue of badges to those engaged in munitions work or other war work is now generally in the hands of the Minister of Munitions—under Section 8 of the Munitions of War Act. Before that Act was passed, and before I the Ministry of Munitions was constituted, the Admiralty had already issued war service badges in certain cases. It was agreed with the Ministry of Munitions that the Admiralty should still control the issue of badges at the Royal dockyards, Admiralty establishments, as well as the civilian crews of vessels owned, chartered and requisitioned by the Admiralty; and to the permanent dock labourers in the docks. We proceed along those lines. Therefore, so far as all transports and all other ships owned, chartered, or requisitioned by the Admiralty are concerned, my hon. Friend's request is met. My hon. Friend referred to the fact that crews of transports receive these badges, but so do all the crews engaged on Admiralty work —colliers and others. On all the ships owned, chartered and requisitioned by the Admiralty they get these badges, and in case of ships auxiliary to the main Fleet but in commission, they get more than that, because they get uniforms. Therefore the only outstanding case which the hon. Member puts is the question of the merchant service engaged in the ordinary avocation of merchant work. That is a question for the Board of Trade, and I cannot, of course, add a single word to what my hon. and gallant Friend said.

Mr. PETO

How long have the crews of these auxiliary vessels had the badges issued to them?

Dr. MACNAMARA

The men of the auxiliary vessels in commission get uniform. The transports have had badges for some considerable time, but I cannot say offhand how long the crews of the colliers have had them. The only point remaining outstanding is the ordinary merchant service engaged on its ordinary work.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Seventeen minutes lifter Eleven o'clock.