HC Deb 28 September 1915 vol 74 cc805-16

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Mr. DUKE

I desire to bring briefly to the notice of the House and of His Majesty's Government, and of the Home Secretary in particular, a matter which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Denbigh Boroughs (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), upon notice brought before the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary upon the Motion for Adjournment last Thursday, and on which, owing to untoward occurrences, he was unable to get a discussion. My hon. and gallant Friend would have raised it again this afternoon, but the leave which he had at that time from military duties expired on Monday morning, and he is therefore not able now to be in his place. The matter is in reference to a set of interrogatories—about one hundred in number—which the Commissioners under the Welsh Church Disestablishment Act have formulated, and which have been circulated among the beneficed clergy of the Church in Wales, with a peremptory requisition for the answers to be in by, I think, the 20th November. The questions deal with the possessions of the Church in Wales, with the benefices of the several beneficed clergy, and with all the emoluments of the clergy. It is said, and I think with a good deal of apparent force, that probably there is a considerable section of these interrogatories as to which the incumbents are under no sort of compulsion to make replies. If that be true, then probably the issue of these interrogatories under the pretence of compulsory authority under the Statute may be a matter which ought to be tested in the Courts to ascertain to what extent the clergyman is bound to meet the requisition made upon him in the manner I have described. There is a familiar case in the department of finance where the inclusion of compulsory inquiries and compulsory answers by a Government Department was held to invalidate the whole proceeding. I do not desire to examine the details contained in the schedule of interrogatories to which I have referred. What I desire to do is, I think, much more consonant with the temper and feeling of the House. I desire to ask my right hon. Friend whether it is not possible to suspend this proceeding until the conclusion of the War; whether it is not possible to avoid the application of compulsion and disputation whether compulsion can be applied and the extent to which it can be applied, at any rate for the present time. The 20th November is fixed as the period at which these clergymen are to make their replies under, I know not what, penalties. The obvious course of dealing with the matter would be to see in the first instance—if they are driven to it—if the interrogatories are administered on lawful authority. But assume that they waive that point. Throughout the Church in Wales there are considerable numbers of the beneficed clergy who are serving with the Colours as chaplains. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Denbigh Boroughs, at whose request I have taken this matter up, informs me that in the relatively small diocese of St. Asaph there are twenty-two beneficed clergymen serving as chaplains, and in other dioceses there are also large numbers so serving. He has informed me also with regard to those who would naturally advise the clergymen as to their responsibilities in respect of interrogatories of this kind that from the diocese of St. Asaph, the Chancellor of the Diocese of St. Asaph is serving wth the Colours, and from a second diocese the Chancellor is absent on military duty. I mention these matters because they cannot fail to appeal to everybody who looks at this question on broad grounds, and the mere fact that my hon. and gallant Friend came here from his military duties last Thursday to call attention to the matter and was prevented doing so on that occasion, and is now absent on military duty, is one of several which, if taken altogether, constitute a strong appeal for consideration as to whether it is necessary that this matter should be pressed in this way at this time.

The 20th of November! Just imagine calling upon an absent clergyman or indeed a clergyman in his parish, to make a compulsory return of this nature by that date amidst the turmoils of this War. I cannot help thinking that if the Government will deal with this matter—if they will prevail upon the Commissioners to deal with it in a spirit of forbearance and in a spirit of recognition of the crisis in which we live and the new relations to one another which that crisis has produced, the prospects of the passage of religious change or ecclesiastical reform in Wales will be very greatly amended for the future. There could not be a worse omen for religious peace in Wales in the future than that here in the height of our troubles, which men of every denomination share, there should be peremptory demands that appear to exceed the functions of the Commissioners, and that it should be insisted upon at short notice that the demands should be complied with under unknown penalties. I do ask my right hon. Friend to see whether forbearance cannot be exercised on this question, so that it may be approached in the calm and proper spirit in which it ought to be approached. I know my right hon. Friend will give as sympathetic consideration to the matter as he can, and I am much obliged to the House for its indulgence in permitting me to raise the matter.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir J. Simon)

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend both for the brevity with which he has mentioned this matter and for the fair and moderate tone in which he has dealt with it. I am glad he has raised the question, because I think on one or two matters there is possibly in some quarters a little misapprehension. It appears to me there is misapprehension on two important points: In the first place, it is important that we should not misunderstand what is the position of the Welsh Church Commissioners in the discharge of their duties under this Act of Parliament. My right hon. Friend is a lawyer, and I think he will agree with me, and, apart from any legal view, the view which I am sure will be broadly taken by all sensible people is, that the Welsh Church Commissioners, having certain statutory duties imposed upon them, ought to exercise their functions in a judicial spirit. The class of functions they have to exercise very closely corresponds with judicial functions, and when I see that they are given in many respects the powers of the High Court, when I see that the decisions they arrive at are subject to appeal to the Privy Council, and when I examine the provisions in the Statute, I cannot doubt that that view is right—and I know it is the view the Commissioners take of their own duty—that really they are in a quasi-judicial position and in no sense the instruments of the Government of the day, or subject to the directions of the Home Secretary or of any other Minister of the Crown. They are a judicial or semi-judicial body discharging a very important statutory duty, and no doubt trying to discharge those duties most fairly as between possibly conflicting interests on one side or the other. Therefore it is important the House of Commons should remember that when the Commissioners in the discharge of their duty take a step, they must not be regarded as taking it at the direction of the Executive. They are doing no such thing. They are acting as judicial authorities always act in this country, with a desire to be impartial, and to discharge their responsible tasks in accordance with what the Statute directs.

There is a second misunderstanding. I am sure I do not say this in the least degree to arouse controversy, but because we really must face it. It is quite a mistake to say that the situation at the moment is that the Welsh Church Act is suspended, if by that you mean that it is not an Act at all, but is a mere Bill. The Welsh Church Bill has been turned into the Welsh Church Act, and that which has happened in connection with it is this: not, indeed, that the coming into operation of the Act has been postponed, but that the date of Disestablishment has been postponed. While I am sure that every man who regards the situation seriously must wish to avoid any possible topic of controversy—that I am sure is the feeling common to all on both sides—we must really face it, that there are some things which have to be done under the Welsh Church Act before the date of Disestablishment arrives. The Welsh Commissioners are in this position: They have cast upon them certain duties by the Statute. Those duties are duties which, in part, they have to perform before the date of Disestablishment. As most hon. Members no doubt understand, the fixed date for Disestablishment is the end of the War. I say that to make it plain that it is not at the direction of the Government—in fact, I may say that my colleagues and I myself did not know about this matter until I was informed of it the other evening—but entirely independent of the direction of the Government the Welsh Church Commissioners have felt it their duty to issue these inquiries.

I see at once why they have thought it right to do so. I find in the Act of Parliament, and in the Rules that were made by Order in Council as long ago as January last, that these Commissioners have functions to discharge which they must discharge now, and must discharge in advance of the date of Disestablishment. What are those duties? By the very terms of the Statute they are to ascertain, not at the date of Disestablishment, but as soon as may be after the Statute has been passed and the Royal Assent has been given, what is the amount of the temporalities of different kinds connected with the Church in Wales. Why is that? Really this is not an inquisition put upon a body of men whose services at this time, as I well understand, and as every Welshman and every honest man in every quarter of the House must understand, are being given freely to the service of the country. It is not an inquisition being put upon them at all. One of the most important financial provisions in the Welsh Church Act is this, that when the day of Disestablishment comes those who speak in the name of the Welsh Church—the Representative Body—are to have the option, if they choose, to select commutation. No one can doubt, if matters continue as they stand now, but that the Re-presenative Body will elect for commutation, because, of course, if they get a lump sum of money, they will be able to invest it, as things are now, at a rate of interest a good deal higher than the rate of interest which was contemplated when the Bill was passing through this House. No one will doubt that, as matters stand now, they will be able to make a good bargain in so doing, and are entirely within their right in so doing. But is it really in the interest of those who speak on behalf of the Welsh Church to say to the Commissioners, "It is true you have a duty to ascertain as soon as possible the value of the Endowments and so forth of the Welsh Church, but do not do it, delay, wait; and then later on, when we come to you and say, 'Please commute,' you will be able to turn round on us and say, 'It is no good asking us to commute at present. We will do it as soon as we can. We are now going to ascertain what is the amount at which you must commute, and from the date of Disestablishment until the day we find what that sum is, you must be content with the 3½ per cent. interest allowed by the Act.'" That will be the effect of the Statute. The Commissioners think they are only doing their duty in the matter if for that, as well as for other reasons, they without undue delay set on foot the inquiries in order that they may discharge their statutory duty and certify what the Endowments are worth.

I turn to the other question raised by my right hon. Friend, which was also mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member who spoke the other night. He thought that some of these inquiries went too far, and that there were interrogatories which were not necessary. Indeed, I think my right hon. Friend hinted that he thought the same thing, and that some of the inquiries might be beyond the powers of the Commissioners. Of course, it would be very unfortunate, because nobody would desire machinery to be set in motion which had no result. It would be doubly unfortunate if these questions were being put in other than a reasonable way, and if the list of questions was being added to extravagantly. If I may take the very instance which was given the other day, I will show my right hon. Friend in a moment that it is another example of the misunderstanding which I mentioned. It is said, and said truly, that these inquiries are inquiries not only as to Endowments in the narrow sense, but as to emoluments, which, no doubt, is a wider term. I assure the House, and any Member of it who feels warmly on this subject on the side of the Welsh Church, that that inquiry is not proposed to the prejudice of the Welsh Church at all. It is rather remarkable that people who take so much interest in the matter should know so little about it. One of the provisions of the Bill is a provision for compensating lay patrons. It is quite plain, therefore, that compensation has to be paid not on the Endowments in the narrow sense, but upon the emoluments in the wider sense. The Statute says so. It is necessary that the Commissioners should know what these are, and it is only by so doing that these very lay patrons will be compensated at their proper figure. What will be the result of leaving it out? It will not have any result on any human being except those who may be supposed to be interested in as little being paid to the Welsh Church as possible. This very thing which was criticised the other night as if it had been put into the interrogatory for the purpose of screwing something out of helpless people, is, I am told, put in in order that the Commissioners may be in a position to pay the larger and proper sum when this sum comes to be payable.

I have said so much because I want the House to see that the Commissioners in this matter, so far as I am able to judge, are acting reasonably. But I must return to the point from which I started, namely, that as I understand the matter we should really be taking a wrong view if we considered the action of the Welsh Church Commissioners was to be challenged in each step they took as if they were in some sense the servants or deputies of the Government. They are exercising functions which are in their nature judicial. If they exceed their powers, like other judicial persons, they will find that they can be corrected or disregarded, but that is a very different thing from treating them as though they were the delegates of the Government of the day. I will say only one thing more. I could understand it if it were said that the Commissioners had taken this new departure suddenly and without warning. But what I find is this: that the Order in Council which regulates in detail their procedure is an Order in Council of as long ago as the 7th January last. I see that the seventh paragraph in that Order in Council says:— The Commissioners shall as soon as may be cause to be circulated to every ecclesiastical person known to them as holding an ecclesiastical office in the Church in Wales a form setting out such particulars as they may require, and such form filled in with the information desired by the Commissioners shall be returned to them within two months from the date of the issue of the form. It will be seen that the procedure was contemplated for many months past. So far as I can judge, it is strictly in accordance with the Act of Parliament, and I cannot see how the Commissioners would be dis- charging their duties if they did otherwise. In a last sentence I would urge the House, while, of course, taking an interest in these and other matters, to remember that the work of the Commissioners will be best discharged if we treat them as what they are, a judicial body acting, I am sure, in a spirit of fairness between possibly contending parties and certainly not in the least under the order of the Government, but in this as in other matters exercising a discretion which I am sure they are quite anxious to exercise fairly as between the different parties.

Colonel Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I must say I feel very much disappointed with the reply of the Home Secretary. He knows quite well that we Churchmen in Wales feel that we have had very harsh treatment. He knows that we feel that the postponement of the Bill merely to the end of the War without any period of grace was harsh treatment, and he knows that we did not protest vigorously against it. In fact we accepted it, not indeed willingly, but we allowed it to proceed because we did not wish to cause any division in this House or in the nation. It would have been thought that after that the Welsh Church Commissioners would have proceeded in a manner which would give as little irritation and trouble and worry to the Welsh clergy as possible. Instead of that, they appear to have taken the opposite course. At the present moment when there is no immediate hurry whatever, because Disestablishment is suspended, an exceedingly irritating circular is sent round containing over a Hundred questions, many of which cannot be answered without a large amount of inquiry and considerable expense, and they are told that an answer must be sent back within two months. I want to know what the hurry is for. Is the Home Secretary such an optimist that he thinks this War is going to be over in two months, and that then that glorious event is going to happen—the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church in Wales?

Sir J. SIMON

It is obvious that when these answers have been obtained it will not be possible for the Commissioners the next day to certify what are the temporalities of the Church in Wales. The answers to such questions are the material out of which the Commissioners will be able to form that conclusion. I am not such an optimist as to imagine that they could do that in twenty-four hours.

Colonel Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

There is no immediate hurry. Our complaint is that the Commissioners have done it at a time like this, when we are told that a large number of the clergy and the chancellors are away, when money is short and it is difficult to make local inquiries, and that they have instituted this very hurried inquiry and given the incumbents the shortest time in which to make replies. It seems to me most indecent haste under the circumstances, and then the Home Secretary merely gets up and, in a very clever piece of what I can only regard as special pleading, tells us it is all for our advantage. Then he goes on to say that after all he is not responsible. I think we are entitled to know who are responsible. If the Government did not stir up the Commissioners to do this they ought to tell us who are the people we are to approach, and if they think the Commissioners have acted unwisely and with indecent haste, at all events it is for the Government to put some curb on them. The Government cannot divest themselves of their responsibility in that way. They must admit that the Commissioners come under the purview of this House and we have a right to complain if we think the Commissioners have done wrong, and the Commissioners must themselves explain, if the Government cannot, what they had in view and why they took this extraordinary course. I have looked through these questions, and I know the Welsh Church Act probably as well as any Member of the House. I am perfectly convinced that a large number of these questions are totally unnecessary for the purposes of the Act and will cause a vast amount of trouble and a great deal of irritation to the clergy, and I really think that it is absurd at this time that this extra trouble and irritation should be put upon the clergy. I think also that the moment chosen for making the inquiry is most inopportune, and the time given is far too short. I am not in the least sanguine that the Welsh Church Act will ever become law, but in any case there will be plenty of time later on to obtain the necessary information. At all events, I certainly think, having regard to the circumstances, to the fact that we all feel that we have been hardly treated, and to the fact that we accepted that treatment in order not to show signs of division to the enemy, we have been very shabbily treated by the Welsh Church Commissioners, and we have a right to demand both that these questions shall be ma- terially cut down in number, and that the answers to them shall be postponed for a considerable period.

Sir HERBERT ROBERTS

I had the honour of being a Welsh Church Commissioner for some months, and I should not like the Debate to close without having an opportunity of saying one thing in reference to the attitude and spirit of the Commissioners. Some months ago, owing to reasons known to my colleagues in the House, I resigned my position as Commissioner, and therefore I do not think I am called upon to refer in any detail to any particular question which has been raised by hon. Members opposite. I rise simply to say, speaking, if I may, out of the experience which I had during the months I was on the Welsh Church Commission, that the moment the War broke out they recognised the changed position brought about by that fact, and in every way possible, consistent with the fulfilment with their statutory obligations, endeavoured to ease the situation, so as to cause as little inconvenience and irritation by the action they were obliged to take in connection with obtaining certain necessary information under the Act. It is difficult, perhaps, to take an impartial view of the situation, but the very fact that almost a year elapsed before the Commissioners took action in the way of circulating these requisitions shows that they delayed as far as possible with a view to easing the situation as much as they could. With reference to the action and powers of the Commissioners, it is not for me in my present position to speak, but I think all who have considered the situation must come to the conclusion that these are questions of procedure under the Act which are for the decision of the Commissioners themselves. Speaking from my own experience, I can asssure the House that the Commissioners in this matter have done all in their power to avoid giving unnecessary inconvenience, and I feel sure they can be trusted in the future to carry out that policy.

Mr. MOUNT

The Home Secretary, I understand, based a large part of his argument in favour of what we call the unnecessary questions, on the ground that it was to the advantage of the lay patron, to whom compensation was to be given; but I think he has forgotten that the Act, as I read it, lays down that this compensation to the lay patron is not to be paid till two years after the coming into operation of the Act, or if a vacancy occurs, before. Therefore, I cannot see what necessity there is on the ground of convenience to the lay patron for these extra, and as we think, unnecessary questions which are being put.

Mr. DUKE

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered, if the Commissioners have not authority themselves to extend the time for answering these questions, whether it would not be possible by a new Order in Council to give them the time to make such an extension as they consider reasonable?

Sir J. SIMON

In answer to the hon. Member (Mr. Mount), I was putting to the House two considerations, and I would ask that they should not be confused. One consideration was that the Commissioners are under the bounden duty to make these inquiries as soon as possible. Then I referred to quite a separate thing, namely, the suggestion that the inquiries were beyond what they were entitled to make, and it was in that second connection that I pointed out that I thought they would be needed in connection with lay patronage. As regards what is now suggested, I will most gladly ask the Commissioners to consider it. I have no reason at present to think that the proposals which are made are other than such as can be complied with. Some people are already complying with them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Eight minutes before Seven o'clock.