HC Deb 29 June 1915 vol 72 cc1770-8

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may, for the purpose of maintaining a sufficient stock of animals to which this Act applies, by order applicable to England and Wales or any part thereof—

  1. (a) prohibit or restrict the slaughter of animals;
  2. (b) prohibit or restrict the sale or exposure for sale of meat of immature animals which has not been imported;
  3. (c) authorise any local authority specified in the order to execute and enforce within their district all or any of the provisions of the order, and provide for the manner in which the expenses incurred by the authority are to be defrayed;
  4. (d) authorise any officer of the Board or of a local authority to enter any slaughter-house or other premises on which animals are slaughtered for human food and examine any animals or carcases therein;
  5. (e) prohibit or restrict the movement of animals out of any area in which the slaughter of such animals is prohibited or restricted;
  6. (f) revoke, extend, or vary any order so made.

(2) The animals to which this Act applies are cattle, sheep, and swine.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), after the word "animals" ["sale of meat of immature animals"], to insert the words "except male lambs of pure breeds and all cross-bred lambs."

In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Spear) I beg to move the ambit standing in his name. The object of the hon. Member in seeking to insert these words is to preserve a very valuable right to the farmers of this country. As the right hon. Gentleman is possibly aware, there is a very great difference between a calf and a lamb. The calf may develop into a very valuable meat-producing animal after having been kept alive for some two and a half or three years. A lamb four or five months old, though it will develop into a larger animal later, is still an animal very considerably below that status as a food-producing animal. If you are fortunate enough to get lambs at the end of December or early in January, you can very often—or it used to be so—sell them at Easter at as large a price as can be obtained in October or November. I am inclined to think that the Amendment will possibly be accepted, and therefore I do not desire to take up the time of the Committee.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Acland)

I would ask the hon. Baronet not to press this Amendment. I think I can go a good way to meet the case that the hon. Member for the Tavistock Division and the hon. Baronet have in mind. I am not at all sure that the hon. Baronet was present when I introduced this Bill.

Sir F. BANBURY

No.

Mr. ACLAND

I would therefore repeat things I said then; that the Board of Agriculture realise to the full the difference there is, and must be, between calves and lambs. We have seen that there has recently been a tendency in the country for persons to say that they will not eat veal or lamb. That is laudable in the case of veal, although unnecessary in the case of lamb. As I said on the Second Reading of the Bill, the breeding and fattening of lambs, and the bringing of lambs to early maturity, is one of the best established, most scientific and most useful departments of all agricultural processes carried on in this country. We do not anticipate that we shall have to make any restriction on the sale of any sort of sheep, because we recognise that in the main, if farmers are not allowed to sell their lambs, they will have to sell their ewes, which would be a much worse thing than selling their lambs. They ought to keep as many ewes as their farms will carry, and sell their lambs quite steadily. If people, instead of knocking off lamb would knock off new potatoes, and stick to their old potatoes a bit, they would be doing much greater service to the State than foreswearing lamb, which is a perfectly right thing to consume, and the consumption of which will not really restrict the breeding stock of the country.

The other thing I explained, or tried to explain, when the Bill was introduced, was that the annual returns of stock were collected as from 5th June, were returned to the Board in the few weeks that follow, and were collated by the beginning of August, and it might be that when the figures were fully ascertained we should find, although we have no anticipation at present, that there was either then or later, if the food supplies of this country were unfortunately interfered with, in some districts, unfortunately—I do not anticipate more than in some districts—a tendency to sell not only the normal lambs which would in any way be sold, but other lambs which ought to be kept for breeding purposes. We might find—though we have no indication whatever yet, and no desire in any way to restrict the sale of any class of sheep at present—that sheep were being sold at different times in such a way as to reduce the breeding stock below what was in the real interest—the permanent interest—of the breeders, and therefore we should like, if the hon. Baronet would permit us, to retain full power of action, instead of having our powers of action circumscribed in the way this Amendment would circumscribe them.

The hon. Baronet proposes we should have no power to restrict the sale for slaughter of male lambs of pure breeds and all cross-bred lambs. I believe that might work quite well in some parts of the country under any circumstances. It would not work always. Take the black-faced Suffolk sheep, for instance. The first cross comes to maturity very quickly, and ought to be brought to maturity very quickly, and put on the market undoubtedly; and we should have no desire whatever, I think, to restrict that highly scientific and valuable process. But the second cross of these sheep does not come to maturity so quickly, is not so much an animal for the butcher, and is an animal which it might be necessary to preserve in the interests of breeding if our food supplies were very much interfered with. Therefore we would like to take this power, though it is not a power which, under present circumstances, we have any idea of using, in case such an emergency arose in which it might be desirable to preserve in full measure our breeding stocks. If it were done it would be in the interests of the farmers, and after consulting farmers and breeders, and certainly after consulting our Agricultural Advisory Committee. As this is only an emergency power, which we might perhaps have to use at the end of August, when perhaps the House for a few weeks will not be sitting, we would rather retain the power in full measure than circumscribe our power. I hope the hon. Baronet will be kind enough to be satisfied with the very strong assurances I have given that we do not intend in any way to interfere with the ordinary normal breeding of sheep for sale or slaughter, and will not press this Amendment.

Sir F. BANBURY

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but I may say that my hon. Friend attaches considerable importance to this Amendment, and so do I. Although the assurance is very satisfactory, something might happen to the right hon. Gentleman, and we might lose his services at the Board of Agriculture, and another right hon. Gentleman who might be put in his place might not take quite the same view. I quite see the point he has made in regard to ewe lambs, but supposing I altered my Amendment and suggested the words "except male lambs." I think that would be going in the direction the right hon. Gentleman wishes, because I understand he desires to preserve the ewe lambs under certain circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman admits that it is not likely that he will have to exercise that power, but if he did it would be entirely with regard to ewe lambs.

Mr. ACLAND

The hon. Baronet will realise that I am not in a very easy position. The President of the Board of Agriculture is in another place, and I should not like to accept this Amendment without consulting him I will, however, give the hon. Baronet my personal view that I think we might accept his suggestion.

Sir F. BANBURY

On that understanding I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (e), after the word "such" ["such animals"], to insert the word "immature." I want to confine this proposal to immature animals. In the case of the swine fever regulations, although they may have done a certain amount of good, considerable hardship has been inflicted on farmers owing to the difficulty they have been put to if they want to move their stock, which may be quite healthy, out of one area into another. Unless the word I suggest is put in, it might be difficult to move a prize cow or a bull from one area into another. As the insertion of the word "immature" will confine the Bill to the purpose intended, I trust the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the way I have already met him, will accept my proposal. If he would accept this Amendment, and if he found his noble chief, as he was once described, owing to political differences of opinion, object to the insertion of this word, and if his Noble Friend omits this word in the other House, I would promise the right hon. Gentleman that I would have nothing to say on the Motion, "That this House doth agree with the Lords Amendment," when the Bill came back to this House. I do not see what political opinions can have to do with this question. As I have given way on one point I hope my right hon. Friend will give way in this case.

Mr. ACLAND

I thought that I had gone a good long way to meet the hon. Gentleman on the previous Amendment, and I am sorry that I cannot undertake to refer this Amendment to the person who was spoken of as my noble chief. I do not think that it is a good one. Included in the classes of animals, the sale of which for slaughter is already prohibited, is the cow which is obviously or visibly in calf. That is a mature animal, and I must suggest to the Committee that the powers of restricting the slaughter of cows in calf or of sows in pig is really at present—and might be increasingly in the future—a power which the Board of Agriculture might wish to exercise in the interests of the preservation and maintenance of our breeding stock. Surely there might very possibly in certain areas in the United Kingdom grow up a tendency to slaughter these entirely mature animals, which might, if they were left alive for only a few weeks or months, produce their young and provide a future stock or supply for our people. We might, I think, quite reasonably and quite naturally therefore prohibit the slaughter of such animals. We have already prohibited the slaughter of cows which are visibly in calf and sows which are visibly in pig. We might have to extend that, and if we extended it in any district in which the slaughter of these animals had been prohibited and at the same time accepted the hon. Baronet's Amendment, our prohibition would become entirely useless, because persons who wished to sell these mature animals for slaughter would merely have to move them out of the area in which their slaughter was prohibited and immediately they got outside they might be slaughtered without any control. I do assure the hon. Baronet that it may be necessary even to extend the present action with regard to mature stock, namely, sows or cows which are about to produce their offspring, and if we do not take the power to prohibit their movement out of the area in which their slaughter is restricted or prohibited all our measures in that direction may be useless. I think I have gone as far as I could to meet the hon. Baronet on the other Amendment, and I hope that he will meet me by withdrawing this one.

Sir F. BANBURY

May I meet the right hon. Gentleman by amending my Amendment? I admit that there is a great deal in what the right hon. Gentleman says. It might be necessary to prohibit the export of in-calf cows. I propose, instead of inserting the word "immature," that we should insert the words "immature or in-calf animals." If the right hon. Gentleman desires to put in the word "in-pig" as well I do not mind. That would meet the right hon. Gentleman and still give the farmer the opportunity of moving bulls or maiden heifers, or heifers which he desires to sell as maiden heifers. I think that is a reasonable proposal, and I should like to move the Amendment in an altered form—to insert the words "immature or pregnant."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir F. BANBURY

I will now move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (e), after the word "such" ["slaughter of such"], to insert the words "immature or pregnant."

Mr. ACLAND

If my hon. Friend, with his usual astuteness, can indicate how to tell when an animal is pregnant I might concede the suggestion. But I would ask him not to press for the insertion of the words, which in administration must entail great difficulty. I do not want to go into details of gynecology, but it certainly is difficult to insert words of this kind. "Immature" is bad enough and it is perfectly impossible, or at any rate extraordinarily difficult, to bring an action on the point whether or not an animal is immature; but with regard to the question whether an animal is pregnant, it would be necessary to slaughter it to find out, and therefore the object of my hon. Friend would be defeated by the steps necessary to discover whether the animal comes within his Amendment. I would ask him not to press the Amendment.

Sir G TOULMIN

I hope that the Amendment will not be pressed. Either we must trust the Department or not. The Board of Agriculture is the most paternal Department in the State: it runs agriculture from the standpoint of the farmer, and it may be trusted to exercise these powers with a due regard to the interests of the farmers.

Sir F. BANBURY

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that one of the reasons why he did not desire to have this Amendment made was that it might be necessary to put restrictions upon the slaughter of in-calf cows. That is no doubt an excellent thing. But a few minutes later he asks, "How can you tell when a cow is in calf?"

Mr. ACLAND

I suggested visibly in calf. But for a man ordinarily conversant with the condition of animals to give evidence about pregnancy which occurs five months before the animal is visibly in calf is a very difficult thing.

Sir F. BANBURY

Would the right hon. Gentleman take "visibly in-calf" instead of "pregnant." It is very well for hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to cry "Oh, oh!" but this is a very important matter for the farmer. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that with the best intentions, when the swine fever regulations are carried out, hardship is inflicted upon the breeders of pigs, and I do not want to see it inflicted upon the breeders of cattle. I am prepared to do this. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would ask the President of the Board of Agriculture to accept the Amendment I proposed just now, to insert the words "male lambs." I will ask him to inform the President of the Board in another place that I have moved this Amendment, and to invite the President to consider whether or not some words to the effect which I have suggested should be inserted. If he will undertake to do that, I will withdraw the Amendment.

Mr. LAURENCE HARDY

I hope the Under-Secretary will not accept this Amendment. There is a danger in it. It would begin to make an exception, and would rather favour the prohibition as affecting one particular sort of stock, namely, lambs. Lambs are the very sort of stock which mostly can be moved very largely from one county to another. All lambs are moved in certain districts from the marsh to the uplands and moved back again. Prohibition would be very serious in that case. I do not wish to move an Amendment on the subject, because in an emergency Bill of this sort I think we ought to trust the Board of Agriculture. If an exception is made as is suggested by this Amendment, it will look as if there would be leave given to specially prohibit what are called immature stock. That would be a pity. I would rather leave full discretion to the Board of Agriculture after the statement they have made, and not begin to have exceptions of this nature, otherwise you might be led into difficulties. I would point out to my hon. Friend who said there was a difficulty in describing what was "immature," that I notice that the word is used in an earlier Sub-section, and therefore difficulty might arise there.

Mr. ACLAND

I accept the hon. Baronet's proposal. I will report to the President what he said, and absolutely reserve my right of saying what I think about it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.