§ Mr. WINGI wish to call attention to a matter which has caused a large amount of soreness, particularly in the North of England, so far as the action of the War Office is concerned. I am not raising this question in any spirit of fault finding with the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Forster) or his predecessor (Mr. Baker). They have both been exceedingly courteous and obliging in all the inquiries in which I have been engaged. A set of circumstances have arisen which I think ought to be cleared up. That is to say, in the question of allotments and allowances the two payments do not run parallel. It arises something like this: When a soldier enlists he is generally asked about making an allotment to his people at home. He is in a generous and confidential mood, and he is told that if he makes an allotment there will be the advantage of a certain allowance to his dependants—in the case of the son, his parents; and in the case of the husband, his wife and children. The soldier leaves it there, saying, "That is all right!" The 3s. 6d. per week finds its way home. In the course of a few weeks those at home, or where they are having the Government allowance, discover that the allowance is not coming as well as the allotment, and write to the soldier to know why. The soldier approaches the commanding officer, and is told that he has not filled up Form 1838. The soldier says that he does not know about that, but he made the allotment and understood the matter to be settled. However, he fills in Form 1838, which finds its way to the place where the soldier lives when he is at home. It is discussed by the pensions committee, the dependants are interviewed by the pensions officer, a decision is ultimately arrived at by the pensions committee and finally the pay comes from the paymaster.
Then the dependants are surprised, for they imagined that the amount of money they would receive would be the allowance from the date upon which the soldier made the allotment. Seven or eight weeks have elapsed between the allotment and the filling in of the form, and they find that they have only got the amount of money 1434 due to them from the signing of Form 1838. I had yesterday a letter from the wife of a soldier stating that her money came to £5 7s. 2d.—I do not know how they get the pennies, twopences, and eightpences—and she suggests that if the amount received had been given as from the day of the allotment, she should have received £13 odd. These people have very good reason to complain. By an Army Order of 27th October, 1914, certain conditions were made and certain forms have to be filled up; but those who are not aware of these technicalities are being penalised on account of their ignorance of the circumstances, which are only known to those who have inside information. I can assure the hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench that I am not exaggerating. I have had scores, I think I may say hundreds, of letters, and I have chosen one or two which are generally representative of the others and which show the impression that the people have. Here is a woman who is speaking of her son who has been away for many weeks. She says that the amount should have been £5 7s. 2d. He was told when he enlisted that the allotment would be all right. Another letter says that the man went away with the non-commissioned officer and saw the paymaster as soon as he arrived at Taunton. He allotted his mother 6d. a day, and the paymaster told him that the separation money would be all right. Instead of receiving nine weeks' separation allowance, which she reckoned to be £4 13s., she received six weeks' pay—£2 15s. 9d. The paymaster said he had raid from the date of the application. I have a third letter, in which the woman says that none of the boys in Durham know anything about Form 1838. I might go on reading letter after letter.
There is good excuse for this ignorance. There is nothing special in the literaturs of the War Office about this particular form, and I have gone through the literature very carefully. Everything in the literature is based on the making of the allotment. "Married men and widowers may be accepted for service, and will be eligible for separation allowance for their wives and children from the date of enlistment." The only indication that one can find in the War Office literature is that application for allowance is to be made to the officer. Not only to-day have I put this question to the hon. Member, but on preceding days, and the answers have been totally unsatisfactory. What I ask is that 1435 the Department will undertake to pay the dependants of the soldiers the amount of money which they think they have a right to expect—and which I think they have a right to expect—from the information they have obtained from the literature of the War Office. I ask that such dependants as have not received the money from the date of allotment, but only from the date of filling up Army Form 1838, should receive the balance. It would be an act of generosity—nay, an act of justice! We are to have in addition this difficulty: I notice the Army Order says if the soldier does not fill in the paper within a month of his enlistment he will not be able to make any allowance whatever; yet on the average, as I have shown, six, seven, eight, and up to ten weeks elapses before this Army Form is filled in. This is calculated to bring about a great injustice, and I hope the hon. Member will seek some means of showing generosity on the part of the War Office to those who have come forward in such large numbers, while at the same time he will endeavour to see the time for filling in Army Form 1838 is extended beyond the month.
§ Mr. RAFFANI desire briefly to support the general case made out by my hon. Friend, more especially the case which he developed in the later portion of his speech. It is unquestionably a very great hardship to a very large number of men who make this allotment, and suppose that they have then fulfilled all the requirements necessary for separation allowance to be paid to their dependants. They find when the matter is rectified that their arrears are not paid. That is a real hardship. That hardship will be intensified tenfold if under this new rule it is found not only that they are not to be paid the arrears, but that their dependants are not receiving any separation allowance at all. If rigidly applied, in the cases quoted by my hon. Friend, the effect of this new rule would be that during the whole period of the War these dependants—and this is a serious matter—will not receive a single penny of separation allowance. Perhaps the Financial Secretary will correct me, but I understand that the application required by this new rule is to be made within a month of the allotment.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster)No, I think you are wrong.
§ Mr. RAFFANI am delighted to hear it. I think I may take it in any case from the hon. Member that if there is any doubt about the matter the case of the wives is so overwhelming that it will be set at rest?
§ Mr. FORSTERI can assure my hon. Friend at once on that point. Under this Army Order application for separation allowance for soldiers' dependants does not apply to the wives.
§ Mr. RAFFANI am extremely pleased to hear that, for that does to some extent meet the case which I am making. I will put then, very briefly, a point with regard to other dependants. The hon. Gentleman who answered me to-day was good enough to say that the Order will not be unreasonably or harshly applied, and I am very much obliged indeed for that concession, and if nothing more is possible, I am certain it would be very much better if the period were extended to three months. If that were done, such cases as my hon. Friend has quoted tonight would be met—the overwhelming majority of cases would be met. You would keep then within reasonable limits, cases which require special consideration, and I believe it would be a concession which would be very much appreciated. I must not be taken as weakening in my attitude at all, for I do press that very strongly.
Assuming for the moment that the hon. Gentleman is unable to give me this concession, I should like to ask him in what manner a person who finds a month has elapsed and desires to put forward an application, can see it reaches a tribunal which will deal with it. He makes an application, and the pension officer may say, and rightly so, "I decline to deal with this case. It is bound by the regulations, and my instructions are not to deal with cases where a month has gone by." An appeal may be made to the Pension Committee and they may reply that it is impossible for them to overrule a pension officer where he is clearly within his rights and instructions. If that happens I should like to ask in what way an appeal is to be made. When the hon. Gentleman's predecessor was in office I pressed for some proper body to which appeal could be sent. I never got any satisfaction with regard to the matter, and I am quite sure it would be a very valuable reform if the hon. Gentleman would institute it. I do not want to make any general charge 1437 against paymasters, who have done very well, but they are not altogether a satisfactory sort of appeal. I have a case which I will send to the hon. Gentleman with reference to a rather different point, but a case in which five, six, or seven letters have been sent to a paymaster at intervals extending over several weeks, and no answer has been sent to any. What is the position of such an applicant whose month is exceeded? I take it, of course, that if the good offices of a Member of Parliament can be invoked, I am sure that the courtesy which is so universally extended by the hon. Gentleman would lead him personally to attend to the case.
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But, after all, a great many of these poor people do not think of invoking the good services of Members of Parliament, and there surely ought to be some method by which, in these exceptional circumstances, they ought to be able to put their case in such a way that it can be heard. If that is not done, I am quite certain that many cases of great difficulty will arise, and I am quite certain of this, too, that if no separation allowances are received until the War is over that will be a very great deterrent to recruiting in many districts, and those of us who are endeavouring to assist recruiting will feel we are very much handicapped in our efforts. I would be very glad if the Financial Secretary to the War Office would be good enough to give attention to these difficulties and if he could find a solution for them.
Mr. T. WILSONI agree with a good deal that has been said by the two previous speakers, but I must say—
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Maclean)May I point out to Members desiring to take part in the Debate that the Debate must close at seventeen minutes past nine? I have no doubt that, as they will wish to hear the reply of the hon. Gentleman representing the War Office, they will bear that point in mind.
Mr. WILSONThere are one or two points I would like to put. One is the case of the wife of a soldier, and owing to difficulties—a quarrel or something of that sort—she has left her husband for a short period and taken the family with her. She has been refused the allowance as the husband has said he refuses to make an allotment from his pay. It is supposed to be compulsory upon the husband to make an allotment to his wife, but the wife, having left him, he has refused, and the War Office 1438 refuses to give any support. I know of a case of the wife of a soldier who took one child with her and lost her employment, and she is now dependent on the generosity of relatives. I was successful in getting an allowance for the child, but, in my opinion, where a wife is dependent on relatives, the husband ought to be compelled to help her, unless she is leading a disorderly life or something of that kind. Another point on which I would like inquiries relates to instances where a soldier has died whilst in training, and the War Office or the Territorial Association have failed to make any allowance towards the funeral expenses. I believe an order was issued whereby the War Office agreed to contribute a certain amount to the funeral expenses of any soldier who died at his training quarters. I have a case in mind of a man who died last February and the mother has not received a single farthing towards the funeral expenses. I think the payment ought to be expedited as much as possible. There are other cases I could bring before the attention of the hon. Gentleman, but these are points which should not be lost sight of, because they create an amount of feeling and affect recruiting.
§ Mr. FORSTERI will certainly make inquiries about the soldier who died on service, but the hon. Member will forgive me if I do not carry in my mind the rules and regulations relating to these matters. I am afraid that in the case of the wife who left her husband, unless the husband makes an allotment she has no claim to separation allowance. In the case where there is a child or children the husbands, I think, has to make an allotment in respect of them. With regard to questions raised by the other hon. Members, I honestly do not think I can carry the matter much further than I took it on Monday night last. We discussed this question of the new Order as to the limit of time within which application for dependant's allowance must be made. I have indicated the reasons why we thought the limit of time was necessary, and I have told my hon. Friend quite frankly that we did not intend to administer this in any harsh or overbearing spirit, but that where there was any good cause shown to us why delay had occurred in making application, we should take that into full consideration.
The view expressed, and I am sure it was genuinely held, is that a month is altogether too short. I should like my 1439 hon. Friend to reflect on that for a moment. They are judging by what has happened during the past few months, and I do not think it is fair to apply that test to the future. Everybody knows that there have been great rushes periodically to the Colours, and vast bodies of men have swarmed into the recruiting offices. I am not divulging any secret when I say that recruiting officers have had to carry out their duty under conditions which were extremely difficult. There have been a number of cases in which recruits may not have had their attention called to the necessity of making a prompt application for these allowances. It is because the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing) has been greatly troubled by complaints from his constituents, and from other parts of the country, that he and his Friends have drawn attention so strongly to this question. The delay that has occurred has been largely caused by the difficulty of making investigations. Claims for separation allowances have been made by soldiers some considerable time after they have joined the Colours, and the longer the delay between the man joining and the time he makes his application, the more difficult is the investigation, and the more difficult it becomes for the pension committee to ascertain the facts. The House must realise that it is essential to proceed in these matters upon facts. You cannot proceed upon a mere statement on the part of those who are interested, because occasionally there are people who take rather an exaggerated view of the degree of dependants. We are bound to stick, as far as we possibly can, to the facts of the case. The longer the period between enlistment and the application, the more difficult it is to carry out the necessary inquiry. With regard to the future, that is why we have fixed the period of June before which applications must be made in respect to men who have enlisted before a certain time. Recruiting is proceeding in a more or less satisfactory manner, but not an overwhelming number of men are coming forward now, and the recruiting officers are no longer submerged to the extent they were. What happens when a recruit joins? When he goes into the recruiting office he is given a form, and he signs his name to one or two simple statements. One is:—
I do not wish to make any allotment from my pay, and I make no claim for separation allowance.1440 That is quite definite. If he wishes to make an allotment, he signs the following statement:—I wish to make an allotment from my pay to, who is dependent upon me, and I intend to claim a separation allowance for him [or her] as soon as I join my depot.That is a definite indication of his intention to claim a separation allowance. That paper is given, or ought to be given, to every recruit who joins. What happens to this paper? It is sent direct to his regimental paymaster on the day he joins. At the same time the recruit signs this form he is given Form 1838, and this is the form upon which he makes his definite application for the allowance. He is given this form on the day he enlists. If he loses it, he can get another from his commanding officer, and the commanding officer is informed by the paymaster that no Form 1838 has been received. It is the commanding officer's business to see that the recruit is given an opportunity of filling up Form 1838, and I can assure my hon. Friend that soldiers, although they may not be fully aware of all the forms that have to be filled up before they enlist, very quickly become aware of the forms that are necessary immediately after enlistment. There is a whole month in which to fill up these forms, and they are pressed upon the soldier's notice, and I think it is rather straining a point to ask us to believe that a man who actually contributed substantially from his wages to the upkeep of his dependants will not be anxious, now that he knows about these things, and as soon as his attention is called to these forms in the recruiting office, to fill them up and make sure of getting the separation allowance. I have looked into this question most sympathetically—
§ Mr. FORSTERThis form calls attention to that matter, and it reminds the soldier that it is very important to fill this up as soon as possible. It reminds him that in the case of a soldier serving at home the allowance begins from the date of application or of enlistment, if the application is made within ten days. If he signs this form within ten days of his enlistment the allowance begins to run from the date of his enlistment.
§ Mr. FORSTERNo.
§ Mr. FORSTERI think opportunities are given to him to see it before he asks for it. At any rate, opportunities are certainly given to him in regard to the present and the future, and I hope that will meet my hon. Friend's contention on that particular point. With regard to the point raised about the pension officer, it does not depend upon the pension officer, but upon the paymaster who has to record the date on which this form is signed. It is for the paymaster, I think, although I speak without absolute certainty, to send them on to the pension officer. The pension officer cannot carry out his investigations without these forms. With regard to the question of a court of appeal, I think that the most prompt and efficacious appeal would be the man's own commanding officer. If a man had any complaint to make with regard to the non-receipt of allowance to which he is entitled he would naturally take that complaint to his commanding officer, and it would receive sympathetic and speedy consideration.
§ Mr. RAFFANWould the hon. Gentleman say something with regard to my point. The commanding officer might stand to the strict letter of the regulations, and hardship might result.
§ Mr. FORSTERI think that people who suffer hardships generally find some method of calling attention to their hard lot. I cannot say on the spur of the moment whether the fear which my hon. Friend has expressed is well founded, but I think not.
§ Mr. FORSTERI am afraid that payment of allowance can only run from the day on which application is sent.
§ It being one hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Maclean) adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February.
§ Adjourned at Seventeen minutes after Nine o'clock till Monday next, 28th June.