SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 15 July 1915)

§ Mr. KING
I desire to ask the Secretary to the Treasury about the Supplementary Estimate which we have not had an opportunity of discussing. There are three of these that are new services, and two of them are of peculiar interest. There is-Class IV. for Scientific and Industrial Research, upon which we have had an explanatory statement, but which is of extreme importance, and upon which a number of Members wish to address the House. Then there is also Class VII., expenses on the Unemployed Workmen's Act, which introduces an entirely new principle and an entirely new system. It does seem to me most important that some fair opportunity should be given to this House before these are passed, apart from 1139 the Appropriation Bill, on which we can discuss them. The House should have some definite opportunity of discussing them.

§ Mr. HOGGE
There are some points on which I would like to ask a question. On Class II. of the new services I notice that the salary of the Lord Privy Seal is put down at £1,693. I do not know if that is the salary which the Government propose to attach to that office in future, or whether this is only an amount for a certain part of the year, and whether the salary is intended to be £2,000. Why is it necessary in the new Government to provide an extra salary of £2,000 in an enlarged Cabinet? That seems rather an extravagant waste of public money. Coming to Class VI., No. 8, Repayment to Civil Contingencies Fund, I am rather disappointed to find that in the granting of honours, these honours, in addition to whatever cost they entail on private persons, are a very serious cost to the public. I notice, for instance, that on Letters Patent conferring knighthoods on twenty-eight persons resident abroad, or otherwise unable to attend the investiture, £856 16s. has been spent, on letters making Viscount Kitchener an Earl of the United Kingdom, £1,000 has been spent, and on letters creating the Right Hon. J. Bryce, O.M., a Viscount of the United Kingdom £200. Colonel Sir Edward Ward, £100. Then there is an item for deeds and other instruments for public departments, £2,238, or altogether over £4,446.
I notice that the Right Hon. Lord Wimborne, on his appointment as Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, was allowed an equipage allowance of £2,769. That seems to me to be just the kind of expenditure that might be saved now by the Treasury. There is an expenditure which is a very considerable one, although it is now more important than any of the others, namely, the contribution in aid of expenses under the Unemployed Workmen's Act. This has been reduced from £100,000 to £50,000. Earlier in the afternoon we discussed that same question on the withdrawal of the Grant of £250,000 for the same purpose. I would again like to point out to my right hon. Friend that the only Government provision for unemployment is the reduced provision of £50,000. Surely the Government provision for dealing with the possibilities of unemployment, which are pressing and painfully tangible, is a matter on 1140 which the Government ought to act as generously as they do in regard to the equipage of the Lord Lieutenant of Ire land, and with the fees in connection with Letters Patent in the case of those who are securing very high and very distinguished honours. I really think that if a man is elevated to the rank suggested in these Letters Patent—

Mr. SPEAKER
The hon. Gentleman is taking the opportunity, on the Motion for the Adjournment, to discuss the Estimate. I do not think that can be correct. We should discuss the Estimate that is proposed either in Committee or on Report. That is the proper time.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I apologise. I submit that we should have an opportunity of putting these questions.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
These Supplementary Estimates include two or three new services. I did not know that the Prime Minister was going to move the Supplementary Estimates, and that, contrary to the Rules of the House, they were to be included in the Guillotine Resolution. If I had known, I certainly should have objected. I think we ought to have had an opportunity of discussing these Supplementary Estimates, which include new services. I do not think it is quite fair to take advantage of what the House did yesterday. I wish to assist the Government, still I do not think it is quite fair to include to-day these Supplementary Estimates in that provision. I do not want to discuss them, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will, to represent what I think I may say is the universal feeling of Members who are present here to-night, to the Prime Minister that we think there ought to be some opportunity to discuss those Estimates. I would suggest that they should be put down as the first Order on the Report stage. It is true that we should not have such an excellent opportunity as we should have had in Committee, but if they are put down on Report stage we should have an opportunity of saying a few words.

§ Mr. L. JONES
I would like to join in the appeal which has been made to the right hon. Gentleman. I know that a number of Members wish to raise points on these Supplementary Estimates, and, as they contain new services, it is really of importance that the House should have an opportunity of discussing them.

§ Mr. MONTAGU
Of course, I will convey to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the feelings generally expressed, but I must respectfully point out that at the end of July the Supplementary Estimates are always passed under the guillotine, and have never been discussed. Since I have been here they have not been discussed but have been passed in that way. [HON. MEMBERS: "New services."] I come to the question of new services, but I do not think that is right with one single exception, and that is the £25,000 grant for scientific investigation. But that has already been debated in the House, and that has been approved as the amount to be spent this year. There is nothing really, technically, strictly new in that. With regard to the Privy Seal Office, that is not a new service. It is only the revival of an old salary now that the office of Lord Privy Seal has been separated from the office of the Secretary of State for India. With regard to the Unemployment Grant, that is not a new service, but is the same Unemployment Grant that we have had every year since the passage of the Unemployed Workmen's Act, except that it is reduced to a lower sum than ever before, because in the opinion of the Local Government Board they would not be able to spend more. It does not cover distress arising out of the War which can be met out of the Vote of Credit. I do not think, therefore, there is anything different in these Supplementary Estimates, but, notwithstanding that, I shall gladly represent to the Prime Minister what has been said.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman will represent the matter to the Prime Minister, but it is rather hard on us that a gentleman of his great authority should tell us that these are not new services. If that is so, why are they then put on the Supplementary Estimates as new services, and what possible object can there be in labelling Class 2 a new service and Class 4 a new service? I have waited here for a considerable period to discuss the Unemployment Grant. Why has the gentleman who draws up the I Estimates told us that these are new services if the right hon. Gentleman is right, and why are they headed new services? I 1142 hope the right hon. Gentleman will express to the Prime Minister very strongly the feeling some of us have about the lack of opportunity of discussion. I have taken no part in the discussion, but a very large part of it has been taken up very largely owing to the fact that Members of the Government were not in their places. Some were here, but the Colonial Office was absolutely unrepresented, and it went on from that. If Members of the Government had been in their places we might have had the opportunity, which we came down to get, of discussing these Supplementary Estimates, which I still look on as new services. I want a further explanation of the £50,000 Supplementary Grant in connection with unemployed workmen, and why it is necessary to have a Supplementary Estimate on the point at all, and why it is called a new service?

§ Mr. MONTAGU
By leave of the House, may I say we used the description "new service" in different senses. Technically it means that it is not supplementary to any Estimate already passed. What I meant in saying it was not a new service was. that it was not something that had not been discussed by the House on a previous occasion, but was comparable with Estimates passed in previous years.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
They are new services here.

§ Mr. LYNCH
I desire to reinforce what has been said on the question of the sum granted for scientific research. Although we have had this question debated, we have not had the plan very clearly outlined in detail. I hope some opportunity will be given so that we can have this plan really expressed in all its working, because it is all very well to vote a certain sum for research, but the advantage might be greatly lost unless we could show clearly the close concatenation between higher technical education on the one hand and, on the other, the manner in which it is linked to industrial work so as to render it as efficient as possible.