§ Motion made, and Question proposed, 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £9,906,378 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Education, and of the various Establishments connected therewith, including sundry Grants-in-Aid." [NOTE.—£5,575,000 has been voted on account.]
§ Mr. LYNCHI desire to say a few words on this subject before the Vote is passed. I do not see a representative of the Board of Education present. I wish to make a criticism with regard to the personality of the appointment of the actual holder of the position of President of the Board of Education, not in any invidious sense, that is to say, but, to put 1102 it bluntly, I do not think, with all my respect for the right hon. Gentleman, that the Ministerial position which he now occupies is that for which he is best adapted. I think the Ministry is convicted for that reason, of bearing on its face evidence, not of a desire for efficiency, but to patch up a Ministry anyhow, amid all the intricacies of party warfare and the difficulties of an unprecedented situation. I wish to en force this question of the personality of the President of the Board of Education. If the Prime Minister desired at this crisis to form a truly national and most highly efficient Ministry, I think that to fill the office of the President of the Board of Education he should have selected some man—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)The question of the qualifications of the President of the Board of Education for his office cannot be raised on this Vote, it is a matter for the Prime Minister.
§ Mr. KINGI am very loath to intervene in this Debate, but I think that a little explanation is necessary when we vote nearly £10,000,000 away in less than ten seconds, and I think that on an occasion like this it is necessary to have some representative of the Board of Education present.
§ Mr. LYNCHUpon the point of Order, Sir. If my hon. Friend is beginning his speech, I would point out that I only sat down on that point of Order.
§ Mr. LYNCHI wish to ask an explanation precisely on my own account of the point of Order. Surely, when we are voting money to a Minister named, is it not in order to discuss whether he has qualifications, at any rate, to fill the position which he holds, and for which we are voting the money. If I am ruled out of order on that point, I have other matters I should like to raise.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have ruled the hon. Gentleman out of order on the point he raised, and perhaps he will continue his speech on some other question which he has in mind.
§ Mr. LYNCHI should have liked to see the President of the Board of Education, or some other representative of the Department, for this reason, to know whether—
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTOn the point of Order. I am far from agreeing with the hon. Member upon the point he raised, but do you rule it out of order to discuss the qualifications of the President of the Board of Education on the Vote of his salary?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANYes.
§ Mr. LYNCHLet me say that I have no personal animus towards the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Education, for whom I have the highest respect, and who I think would be of utility in the Government if he had another post. I repeat, that I should like to see a representative of the Board of Education present while the Vote is being considered, in order to know how far the Board of Education has proceeded with this scheme, which was presented to the House by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, linking together higher education in this country with industrial development, that is to say, providing for this country, or rather to make some tentative steps towards providing for this country, a large and adequate scheme of technical education, founded, if necessary, upon the German model, because among the greatnesses and the faults of the German Government there is one point on which it has scored, and scored even in this country, is their very admirable, far-reaching, carefully thought out, and highly efficient scheme of higher technical education. I would like to know from the representative of the Board of Education whether that scheme, which was outlined by the President's predecessor, is being, not merely adopted, but is being actively fostered, and put into working operation, so that, with the least possible delay, we may have something tangible as evidence, at any rate, for what I hope may afterwards develop into a large and extremely useful scheme of higher technical education.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Herbert Lewis)I am not quite sure whether I shall be in order in discussing on this Vote a matter which arises definitely on a Supplementary Estimate, which provides for the scheme to which the hon. Gentleman referred. But if it is for the convenience and advantage of the Committee that I should now make a statement upon that scheme, I shall be very glad indeed to do so. It will be remembered about two months ago the 1104 late President of the Board of Education gave notice to the House that he proposed to frame and push forward a scheme—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANReference to that scheme will come more appropriately on the Supplementary Estimate; it does not arise on this Vote.
§ Mr. KINGI take this opportunity of urging upon the Board of Education that in their administration they should study economy. I hope on a later occasion, before the adjournment, to raise this question in another form, and when the President of the Board of Education is present. I intend to put some proposals before him for efficiency combined with economy, but I will take the opportunity of saying now that there are many directions in which economy can be practised at the Board of Education. I have studied the methods of this Board, and they are rather marvellous in many directions, but in none more than the way in which, in order to please various vested interests, they spend money, and allow money to be spent. There is to my mind a great waste of money in public education, dictated all the time by fear of touching vested interests. I will give one instance. We have got, no doubt, something like from 150,000 to 200,000 endowments connected mostly with schools which are Church schools, Roman Catholic schools, Wesleyan schools, and council schools; they have all got endowments of a peculiar kind. There is a provision in the Education Act of 1902, Section 13, by which the Board of Education can make schemes for all these endowments. They do not do so.
They appoint committees, they allow minorities to present reports, and then they are afraid to exercise the powers they have, or to bring in legislation. All that money is lying idle at the present time. It might all be brought into use for the promotion of efficiency and work. That is only one direction, which I could follow out at great length if necessary, but I do not intend to do so. The right hon. Gentleman is new to his office, and, therefore, I do not want to puzzle him, but I want to give him two suggestions, and if he will follow them out with courage and industry, I assure him that they will bear good fruit in time. Let me mention one more point with regard to efficiency and economy, and that is as to the small schools which sometimes occupy the field of a whole education authority, and which is the most 1105 wasteful, extravagant, and inefficient system you could have. At various times by questions I have called attention to some of the scandals of this system. If the right hon. Gentleman would look up the questions I have asked he would see a wonderful way in which to save national money. Torquay is a case in point, and if he will look up the Blue Books and Be-ports he will see that there are something like a dozen schools with 120 scholars, which means a perfectly extravagant, wasteful, ovelapping system. A head teacher has to be appointed in each of those schools, with salary according to scale, and the whole period of school life is arranged with such few scholars that you cannot have full classes in each separate staff. The result of the system is waste and extravagance with too many teachers, and in the end inefficient education. I do hope this question, resulting as it does in favouritism, inefficiency, extravagance, and hopelessness with regard to any progress, will be taken in hand by the Board of Education. I know it is a difficult subject to absolutely force through, but you can now do what you could not do a year ago, you can appeal to the people's national interests, and economy and concentration of forces which you can have in education more effectively than in any other form of administration. If the right hon. Gentleman will go away determined to look into this matter and to give his best consideration to do, by tact and administration, everything he can in this direction, he will be of service to the State and to education.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTMay I ask whether I would be in Order in stating the reasons why I consider the right hon. Gentleman who is responsible for the Department of Education is competent for the office he holds?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANRemarks of that kind as to the personal qualifications of persons holding Government offices do not arise in Committee of Supply. That is a matter for the discretion of the Prime Minister, which can be challenged on another occasion but not on this.
§ Mr. L. JONESAs we are voting £2,000 for the Gentleman in question, surely it is open to the Committee to discuss whether he is worth £2,000 per year or whether the Committee ought to give a smaller salary! I submit unless we 1106 have an estimate of his character and qualifications how can we decide whether £2,000 is the right salary to give? Anything which affects the question of the salary he ought to have is surely relevant to the Debate!
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI gave the ruling on the point before the lion. Member, I think, came into the House that it is not in order to do so.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTI am afraid that you have, by anticipation, ruled out of order all the remarks I intended to make upon the Vote which we are now considering.
§ Question put, and agreed to.