HC Deb 14 July 1915 vol 73 cc874-83

(1) For the purpose of assisting the Statutory Committee in the execution of their duties, a local committee shall be established for every county and county borough.

(2) The constitution of a local committee shall be such as may be determined by a scheme framed by the council of the county or borough and approved by the Statutory Committee; so, however, that every such scheme shall provide—

  1. (a) for the appointment by the council of the county or borough of at least a majority of the local committee; but the members so appointed by the council need not be members of the council; and
  2. (b) for the appointment by the council of the county or borough, from amongst the members of the local committee appointed by the council, of a chairman; and
  3. (c) for the inclusion of some women amongst the members of the local committee.

(3) The scheme, in the case of a county, may provide for the division of the county into districts and the appointment of a sub-committee for each such district, so, however, that every borough and urban district within the county having a population of not less than twenty thousand, and in the case of the county of London the city of London and each metropolitan borough, shall be a separate district, and in the appointment of every such subcommittee some of the members appointed shall be women.

Such a sub-committee may, but need not, contain any members of the committee by which it is appointed; and a committee may delegate to a sub-committee any of its powers and duties under this Act.

(4) Any expenses of a local committee (except so far as they may be paid by the Statutory Committee) shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the local committee.

(5) In the application of this Section to Scotland "county borough" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh whose lord provost or provost is, as such, a member of the corporation, and "borough" or "urban district" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh.

(6) In the application of this Section to Ireland a reference to a borough or urban district having a population of not less than ten thousand shall be subsituted for the reference to a borough or urban district having a population of not less than twenty thousand.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "borough" ["a local committee shall be established for every county and county borough"], to insert the words "and for every borough or urban district having a population of not less than fifty thousand, the council of which so desires, and for any other borough or urban district for which the statutory Committee, on the application of the council thereof, considers it desirable that, having regard to the special circumstances of the case, a separate local committee should be established."

After a long and very interesting consultation with many Members of this House who are well versed in local affairs, an agreement was come to between us that I should put down an Amendment of this kind. That agreement was come to late yesterday afternoon, and in consequence of having to receive a deputation somewhere else I was unable to hand in the Amendment, I regret to say, until the House had risen, the House having risen early. Otherwise I should have put the Amendment on the Paper. It is very easy to understand this Amendment. The Bill says, in Clause 2, Sub-section (1):— For the purpose of assisting the statutory Committee in the execution of their duties, a local committee shall be established in every county and county borough. It is thought that very large and important districts having a population of not less than 50,000 might well be entrusted with setting up their own scheme, that they might desire to do so in many cases, and that they would be able to do it and would be able to get very good personnel to serve on the committee with the result that they might devise a thoroughly good scheme. Of course, that scheme will have to be approved by the statutory Committee, and it is only if the council of these boroughs or urban districts having a population of over 50,000 express a desire to have a scheme of their own that that desire, if my Amendment is carried, will and must be granted by the statutory Committee. I do not think there will be any difference of opinion in the Committee-that where there are large and important boroughs or large urban districts having a population of not less than 50,000, they should not be merely sub-committees of the county, but should be really autonomous, independent committees setting up their own scheme from the first and submitting their scheme to the statutory Committee. This Amendment goes on to say, and this is an important and very much wider application, and for any other borough or urban district for which the statutory Committee, on the application of the council thereof, considers it desirable that, having regard to the special circumstances of the case, a separate local committee should be established. There may be special circumstances in such a case as this. It may be a large garrison town where it is very necessary that they should have the right to set up a separate local committee of their own, having regard to the peculiar difficulties with which they have to deal, with the number of cases of soldiers and sailors with which they have to deal, and where it is desirable that there should be on these separate local committees those people who have been in the habit of, and have had great experience in, looking after soldiers and sailors and their wives and families. I can imagine many circumstances which might be put forward as being special circumstances which would entitle the statutory Committee to give consideration to schemes, and to determine that a separate local committee might be established for those places.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

They might collect money for them.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

My hon. Friend suggests that they should have the power of collecting money. There might be other districts besides garrison districts having peculiar circumstances of their own. If this Amendment is carried it does not compel the statutory Committee to grant the application of the council. It will be entirely within the option of the statutory Committee to grant it or not. If it considers that there are special circumstances it can grant the application, and so set up an autonomous committee in a district of that kind. I therefore beg to move the Amendment, and I hope the Committee will accept it.

Sir R. ADKINS

My right hon. Friend said that this Amendment represents an agreement that was come to yesterday by the representatives of the county boroughs and other boroughs and representatives of the county councils. May I point out, however, that my right hon. Friend in the Amendment has not inserted the words "over 20,000." I think he will agree with me that what was agreed to yesterday was that this power of the statutory Committee—

The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Long)

We will insert the words "over 20,000." It is an omission.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I am much obliged to my hon. and learned Friend. These words should have been put in after "any borough or urban district," "with a population of over 20,000."

Sir R. ADKINS

While the county councils prefer the Bill as it stands, I have no doubt the borough councils would have preferred a still wider extension of autonomous control. However, those of us who represent the county councils and are empowered to speak for the Parliamentary Committees acquiesce in this proposal of my right hon. Friend, and we will do all we can to make it work.

Mr. G. THORNE

As one of those who took part in the interview with the right hon. Gentleman yesterday afternoon, I thank him for the Amendment he has now proposed. As my hon. and learned Friend says, it does not go quite so far as those we represent would desire. Nevertheless, it goes in their direction, and I think it represents a fair compromise on this question. Therefore I heartily support it.

Sir J. SPEAR

I cordially support the Amendment. While we all recognise the importance of the statutory Committee guiding the general application of the pensions, it is most important that there should be local committees for administration purposes conversant with the circumstances of the different localities. I believe that this Amendment will facilitate a complete application of pensions by the sub-division which is provided. We all feel the importance of due speed in dealing with these pensions. Delay often occurs in consulting a statutory body which is situated a long distance off, and there is often inconvenience to the parties concerned. I think the Amendment gives a very wise delegation of power which will militate to a more discriminating application of pensions than if the matter were directed entirely by the statutory Committee.

Question, "That the words 'and for every borough or urban district having a population of not less than fifty thousand the council of which so desires and for any other borough or urban district, with a population of over twenty thousand, for which the statutory Committee, on the application of the council thereof, considers it desirable that, having regard to the special circumstances of the case, a separate local committee should be established,' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In Sub-section (2) leave out the word "or" ["the county or borough"] and insert after the word "borough" the words "or urban district."

In Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), leave out the word "or" and after the word "borough" insert the words "or urban district."

In Sub-section (2), paragraph (b), leave out the word "or" and after the word "borough" insert the words "or urban district."—[Mr. Hayes Fisher.]

In Sub-section (2), paragraph (c), leave out the word "some" ["for the inclusion of some women"] and after the word "women" insert the words "and representatives of labour."—[Mr. Hayes Fisher.]

Mr. GOLDSTONE

I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having included these words and fulfilled the pledge he gave to us.

Mr. DICKINSON

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words, "and in the case of the County of London, the City of London, and each Metropolitan borough."

I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman will not express any further willingness to accept this. It is understood that he is going to consult the various boroughs in regard to this matter, and I do not know-how far his opinion will be effective. The words in the Bill render it obligatory in London that the districts of the local committees shall be co-terminus with the districts of the borough councils, instead of giving to a London County Council the option of distributing the work as they think best. When they have exercised the option for the purpose of the old age pensions they came to the conclusion that it was better to divide London into thirteen divisions instead of into twenty-nine divisions, as is provided for the purpose of local administration. That system has worked remarkably well, because it has combined smaller areas together into an area of more reasonable size. If the county council have the option in this case they might, or might not, follow the scheme of which they have experience and with which they are very well satisfied, but it is wiser to leave to the county council the option of devising the best scheme for London, and that is the object of my Amendment.

Mr. KING

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I have been considering afresh the Amendment of my right hon. Friend, and have been in communication with several members of the London County Council, and I am more than ever strengthened in my view that each Metropolitan borough should have the option of setting up a committee of its own. As I am the author of the old age pensions scheme by which the London County Council area is divided up into thirteen districts, I am very glad to hear that it has worked well. I think that it has worked well in the matter of old age pensions. I am equally certain that it will not work well in the case of the duties cast upon these Committees. Both in the case of the Transvaal war and of this War, the people who consult these Committees and receive benefits from them have got into the habit of dealing with the committees set up, not only in each borough, but in each Parliamentary area, and they are in the habit of going to their own town hall for information or to some building close to the town hall where there is a committee of their own. I am perfectly certain, in the case of my own borough, that it would be a very unpopular proceeding to ask soldiers' and sailors' wives in Fulham to go to Hammersmith or Chelsea, and it would be an equally unpopular arrangement to ask the inhabitants of Deptford to go to Greenwich or those of Greenwich to go to Deptford. The committees themselves have now been formed from those who, to a large extent, are inhabitants of the borough, with an infusion of those who do not live in the borough. These people are accustomed to act with one another over a particular area, and I believe that when these committees are set up it will be advisable, as far as possible, to follow the general line and general run of those committees which have now become exceedingly well-known to the people and become popular and are exceedingly accessible, much more accessible than they would be if London were divided up into thirteen districts, instead of having separate sub-committees in each Metropolitan borough. While having every desire to meet the wishes of the London County Council, of which I have been a very attached member, I cannot say that I think that the Metropolitan boroughs should give way on this occasion, but I think that they ought to be consulted, and that each should be allowed a separate sub-committee for the very important work with which they are entrusted.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I beg to move, after the word "district" ["shall be a separate district"], to insert the words, "and that the council thereof shall have the right of appointing at least a majority of the members of the sub-committee."

I trust that the House will agree with me in giving the borough councils this power of control, which all the local councils under this Bill should have.

Sir R. ADKINS

This Amendment is a further step towards autonomy in the district, so as to ensure that the district point of view shall be adequately represented.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. KING

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "may, but."

This is a very curious piece of drafting, which can be easily improved on. It rather suggests that there may be someone else. Why strengthen the expression in the Clause by redundant words? Redundant words are always objectionable in Acts of Parliament, as they suggest that there is some hidden or peculiar meaning which ordinary people do not understand.

Mr. WATT

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I do not think that this is an improvement, as it gives too much of an indication as to the course which must be followed.

Sir R. ADKINS

I think it would be an alteration for the worse if my hon. Friend's Amendment were accepted by the Government.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I beg to move, to insert the word "local" before the word "committee" ["and a committee may"].

Unless the word "local" is there inserted, there might be some confusion.

Sir R. ADKINS

Is there not some ambiguity? Take a sub-committee in a small borough. The majority is appointed by the borough council, and the minority appointed by a corporation or county council, and there might arise a question as to the meaning of the word "local." I think that it ought to be made quite clear.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

I understand that the word "local" here comes in to harmonise with Clause 4, where it says, "that the function, of local committees shall be." I think that the Amendment is a very proper one.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

It refers to the local committee in Clause 2, Sub-section (1), and it is in order to carry on the language of Sub-section (1) into Sub-section (3).

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendment made.

Mr. WATT

I beg to move, in Subsection (5), to leave out the words, "burgh whose lord provost or provost is, as such, a member of the corporation."

It s provided that every county borough in England and Wales is to have the right of instituting a local committee. But, when we come to Scotland, instead- of having every police burgh given the same rights, there is a qualification and limitation, namely, that the lord provost or provost must be, as such, a member of the corporation. I think that this is an inequality as between the two nations. I think that the words should be omitted so that in Scotland every police burgh should have a local committee, the same as every county borough has its local committee. My case is very much strengthened by the addendum accepted to-day by the House, by which not only county boroughs, in England and Wales are to have that right, but in certain circumstances it is to be extended to urban districts. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham said that it was only last night that he came to the conclusion to extend that right, and I would like to ask the Lord Advocate whether that intention of the right hon. Gentleman was indicated to him. Even as the Bill stands, Scotland suffers an inequality, and if my right hon. Friend has not made provision for Scotland since last night, then the addendum which has been passed makes the case even worse than it was before. I desire therefore that these disqualifying words, as applying to Scotland, should be omitted.

Mr. PRATT

I beg to second the Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Munro)

The definition in the Amendment to which my hon. and learned Friend objects in this particular Clause has historical sanction. In the principal Act of 1903, the Patriotic Fund Act, he will find that "county borough" in England was defined, when applied to Scotland, as being a royal or parliamentary or police burgh, the population of which is not less than 50,000. The view on which that Act proceeded was that that was the equivalent in Scotland of a county borough in England. That is the view upon which this Bill proceeds. I think that the equivalent is a fair equivalent. It will work quite equitably, and will give no undue advantage, so far as I can detect, to England as compared with Scotland. I am informed that in England there are just five county boroughs the population of which is less than 50,000. They are Burton-on-Trent, 48,236; Canterbury, 24,626; Chester, 39,028; Exeter, 48,664; Worcester, 47,982. My hon. and learned Friend will notice that with the exception of Canterbury and Chester the population of all these county boroughs is very close to 50,000, and that only two of them, Canterbury and Chester, fall far short of this figure. Against these two we have, in Scotland, Perth, which, though it has a population of only 35,000, nevertheless has a Lord Provost, and in virtue of that fact is entitled to a local committee. Accordingly, my hon. and learned Friend will see that there is no inequality in the matter. May I also point out that if the Amendment were carried we should have in Scotland no fewer than 207 of these local committees, which, I think my hon. and learned Friend will admit, would be excessive. So far as the Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham is concerned, I differ from my hon. and learned Friend because I think that it strengthens my case against this Amendment rather than strengthens the case in favour of the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.