CLAUSE 2.—(Establishment of Local Committees.) (Hansard, 6 July 1915)

HC Deb 06 July 1915 vol 73 cc283-310 283

§ (1) For the purpose of assisting the statutory Committee in the execution of their duties, a local committee shall be established for every county and county borough.

§ (2) The constitution of a local committee shall be such as may be determined by a scheme framed by the council of the county or borough and approved by the statutory Committee; so, however, that every such scheme shall provide—

(a) for the appointment by the council of the county or borough of at least a majority of the local committee; but the members so appointed by the council need not be members of the council; and
(b) for the appointment by the council of the county or borough, from amongst the members of the local committee appointed by the council, of a chairman; and
(c) for the inclusion of at least two women among the members of the local committee.

§ (3) The scheme, in the case of a county, may provide for the division of the county into districts, and the appointment of a sub-committee for each such district, so, however, that every borough and urban district within the county having a population of not less than twenty thousand, and in the case of the county of London the city of London and each metropolitan borough, shall be a separate district.

§ Such a sub-committee may, but need not, contain any members of the committee by which it is appointed; and a committee may delegate to a subcommittee any of its powers and duties under the Act.

§ (4) Any expenses of a local committee (except so far as they may be paid by the statutory Committee) shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the local committee.

§ (5) In the application of this Section to Scotland "county borough" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh whose lord provost or provost is, as such, a member of the corporation, and "borough" or "urban district" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh.

§ (6) In the application of this Section to Ireland a reference to a borough or urban district having a population of not less than ten thousand shall be substituted for the reference to a borough or urban district having a population of not less than twenty thousand.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "duties" ["in the execution of their duties"] to insert the words "the county boroughs and district councils having pension committees under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, shall be invited to allow such pensions committees, and such pensions committees shall be invited to consent to serve as local committees for the purpose of this Act; failing such allowance and consent."
This is a very important Amendment. The matter was debated on the Second Reading. It is a question whether it would not be advisable to give an 285 option to the councils to select the old age pensions committee instead of providing a new scheme. Sub-section (2) places the responsibility to constitute a scheme upon the local authorities. It is very essential for many reasons that the local old age pensions committee should be the body, otherwise you will have certain complications. At the present time the whole country is divided into districts for old age pensions committee purposes. As I said on the Second Reading, in my own county of Durham we have twenty-seven such committees in operation. It would be very unwise, seeing the multitudinous work of the county councils and borough councils, to create another set of committees to do this work, because the old age pensions committees at the present time have to decide upon the matters affecting the allowances to mothers, sisters, or fathers—those who are entitled to dependant allowances. They have to appeal, or to apply to the old age pensions committee for a recommendation to the War Office, or the Admiralty, so far as the allowances are concerned.
It is stated that there is some objection to the old age pensions committees. I really myself cannot see why! The old age pensions committees are composed of members of the county council. They create sub-committees, or district committees throughout the county. These are composed of members of the borough and district councils. The committees are really co-opted members, men from the outside who are experienced in the work. The council have to formulate a scheme under this Clause. In that case again they would really have to appoint the old members of the old age pensions committee—if they liked; and therefore it would be much better to give an option, subject to the reconstruction of the old age pensions committee—because I believe there are no women on the old age pensions committees. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] There are no women upon the committees of which I know. It may be that the old age pensions committees would have to be reconstructed to suit the representation that is intended upon these committees. I think, therefore, that the option should be given to a committee of the council to make that selection.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
This was a matter of severe controversy on the Second Reading of the Bill. I then said that whilst I 286 had the greatest admiration—from practical experience again—of the work done by the old age pensions committee, and by a great many of the pensions officers, I did not think, and I do not think now, that the old age pensions committees and the pensions officers, are the best persons, or that the committees are composed of the best people, or that the pensions officers are the best officers to guide these committees in doing this particular kind of work. We want committees composed of many other elements than those on the old age pensions committees. I am familiar with them. I think they do their own work, the work to which they are suited, admirably. But I would not cast this work upon them. I point to the particular Clause which casts upon these new committees the duties of providing for the employment and the training of officers and soldiers and sailors who have been wounded and disabled. Theirs is a very big work. I do not think for a moment that the old age pensions committees are so constituted throughout the country that they could adequately and properly discharge this most important function.
I think this is a Committee that should be composed of a great variety of elements. One of the elements you should look for in that Committee is an element that is in touch with the needs, the work, and the lives of the soldiers and the different organisations associated with them. For my part, I hope we shall not limit the choice of these new bodies to those who are doing, admirable work on old age pensions committees. I have already been informed that the pension officers attached to the old age pensions committees have more work already than they can possibly perform, and just at this moment the Board of Customs and Excise is not well able to add to the number of their pension officers. Therefore at the present time this proposal would put undue pressure on the local committees and the pension officers, and work which, I think, they are not too well qualified to perform, considering all the work they have to perform already. I hope we shall give a far wider choice. No doubt in many places a great proportion of the Committee will consist of those who have done the excellent work which many of the members of pension committees have done. There is nothing to prevent a very large selection from the old age pensions committees, and I think in many places we are likely to have that large selection.

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§ Mr. G. THORNE
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, I do not suppose my hon. Friend will desire very strongly to press the Amendment. I have put down an Amendment somewhat on the same lines, but giving an option rather than making it compulsory, and also providing for the difficulty in reference to the appointment of women. This Amendment is one which has been suggested by the Committee of the Association of Municipal Corporations. They have given very careful consideration to this matter and they strongly urge this Amendment. I regret the right hon. Gentleman does not see his way to accept this principle, but, in view of what he has said, I do not think it wise to press it further, and, consequently, as he has stated that the focal authorities will have ample power of practically utilising all the members of the pensions committee who are willing to serve, perhaps that will largely meet the case.

§ Mr. GOLDSTONE
I hope my hon. Friend intends to press this Amendment. The reasons adduced by the last hon. Member seemed to be most inadequate. Clearly, if the pensions committee is to be drawn on for a considerable number of its members, why not use the pensions committee as a nucleus, reform it, add elements not now represented, and allow it to do the work? The right hon. Gentlemen, in appealing for the withdrawal of the Amendment, suggested that pension officers would not be suitable for the work, or were inadequate for the purpose; but it appears to me that the old age pension officer, in the main, with his knowledge is equipped for the work under this Bill. I would point out that it is not necessary for the local authority to accept its pension committee. If it does not desire to constitute a new committee, why throw upon it the onus of the constitution of a new committee, and give it all the trouble of selecting a new committee when it may have an old age pensions committee already in being quite capable of doing the work? There was another reason which occurred to me while the right hon. Gentleman was stating the objections of the Government to accepting this Amendment. He pointed out that this Committee would have thrown upon it the onus of arranging for the training of those who may be in receipt of relief. I desire to separate that work entirely from any committee which is set up for so different a purpose as the giving of relief. 288 The people who are giving out these small amounts will be disposed, I imagine, to clear off their books as many cases as possible in the shortest possible time, and they will be disposed, if they are responsible for the training and the employment of the people they assist, to get rid of them, no matter what the wages may be offered. I want to suggest that there should be a committee for this purpose of training and equipping for industrial work entirely distinct from the body for dispensing relief.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
Outside this Bill?

§ Mr. GOLDSTONE
Not necessarily outside this Bill; inside this Bill, as suggested by Amendments from these benches, so as to give us a Committee more in touch with industry than the particular sub-committee under the scheme outlines in the Bill. The two functions are so different that they ought to be discharged by two entirely different sets of people. The reasons of the right hon. Gentleman, so far from convincing me of the desirability of dropping the Amendment, rather suggest to me the necessity of adhering to the Amendment and giving the locality the opportunity, if it so desires, of getting its old age pensions committee strengthened for this purpose, and that we have constituted under the Bill a separate Committee for the equipment of training institutions, and for the placing in employment of those assisted as soon as they are sufficiently strong to undertake it. The issue is so clear and so important that we should press this Amendment, in my opinion, to a Division

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I believe that the evidence before the pensions committee was so strong that the pensions committee came to the conclusion that the old age pensions committee was not the best committee to be selected. I know that in many cases there has been great objection to the officers, although I personally have not come across it. Still, the Committee itself was very strong upon this point: that it was better to set up a new committee in each district, and, as the Government are not prepared to accept the option of allowing the old age pensions committee to act, I desire to withdraw my Amendment. [HON. MEMHERS: "No."]

§ Mr. HOGGE
On a point of Order. My Amendment, which comes next, raises the same point. I wish to discuss that; does this preclude me?

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§ The CHAIRMAN
If the hon. Member had allowed this Amendment to be withdrawn he could have moved his, but the Committee has refused leave to withdraw it, and therefore it must be settled either in the affirmative or the negative. If settled in the negative I cannot allow a discussion again on the hon. Member's Amendment.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I do not mind so long as we can discuss it on the original Amendment. May I also add my quota to what has been said with regard to this? I hope that this will be persisted in. If hon. Members will look at what is suggested as the alternative in the Bill, it is that the local authorities, such as the county borough, shall appoint an ad hoc Committee on which ad hoc Committee there shall be a majority of the councillors in that particular borough. Is not that exactly the position of their own pension committee? On every local pension committee now there is a majority representative of the councilors; they are there already.

§ Mr. HOHLER
I do not see that they are bound to appoint any members of the council at all. If you look at Clause 2, Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), you will see they can appoint any persons they like.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend, because it strengthens my argument. The proposal of the Bill may take away from the representatives of the people in a locality, such as a county borough, the right to determine those questions which are to be determined under this Bill. I will tell my right hon. Friend quite frankly, because I believe it is fair to be frank in these matters, why I do not think the alternative in the Bill is a good one. I am frankly afraid of the interests of our disabled soldiers and sailors, and those people who are getting extra allowances and grants, falling into the hands of any irresponsible committees. I do not like the way in which a great many of these things are done. I do not illustrate that at all, but I only state it quite frankly to show my attitude of mind. On the local pension committee you have now a majority of representatives of our city councils and borough councils. That committee has power to co-opt other people, including women who are interested in the administration of old age pensions, so that it is quite easy for this Bill we are now discussing to give that committee power further to co-opt persons you think should be on but are not on. Objection has been 290 made with regard to the pension officer, and, quite rightly, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said the men who were doing that work were very largely occupied. Of course, the reason for that was that those were the wrong men to make pension officers. Those men were Inland Revenue and Excise officers, and for the purposes of the OM Age Pension Act were made pension officers; but if you find these officers cannot do the work of this Committee, because they are so busy on account of the demand made upon them, it is easy to get somebody else. There are plenty of officers in our city and borough councils who could do this work effectively.
8.0 P.M.
If anyone will tell with me, I shall divide the House on this point, because I feel it is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman to get up again to-day and say what he said on the Second Reading. He promised us, and I think he was perfectly frank in his promise, that he would consider all these points in Committee. What has my right hon. Friend done? He has said to-day that he still holds the view he held then—that is to say, he has not considered it again. I do not mean to be offensive, as my right hon. Friend knows. My right hon. Friend has not shown the Committee why the old ago pensions committee cannot do this work, and why it is necessary to set up an entirely new Committee. I would also point out that there is the question of funds involved in this. Sub-section (4) says that any expenses of a local committee shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the local committee. If we are going to set up an entirely new Committee, it may raise a question in a locality of funds which are required for other purposes being diverted for the machinery of this Committee in that locality. Now, on the other hand, you have an old age pensions committee, which is a working institution, which has not got so much work but that it could have fresh duties added to it, and which, therefore, would avoid all questions of further expense. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether he could not add to the old age pensions committee in the various localities the type of person whom he thinks at the present moment is left out of the old age pensions committee, and so strengthen that body as to be able to achieve both purposes? If this House is keen over economy they are quite as keen in regard to increasing the machinery in 291 the country for carrying out Acts of Parliament, for in all conscience we have enough. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to some simple plan for enlarging the old age pensions committee to carry out this work.

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member appears to be discussing a proposal standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne). If that is the desire of the Committee this Amendment might now be negatived.

§ Mr. GOLDSTONE
I suppose, Mr. Chairman, you will then allow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton to move his Amendment?

§ The CHAIRMAN
Yes, that Amendment deals with the question of the old age pensions committee with three additional members who shall be women.

§ Amendment negatived.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
I beg to propose, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "county and county."
The suggestion here is to bring in the large urban districts with a population of over 20,000. That was provided for in the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, and my Amendments in this direction do not go quite so far as the Committee suggested, although they are strongly urged by the Association of Municipal Corporations, who have given this matter their very careful and anxious consideration. The Amendment is one which I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept, because he promised to listen to the representations made from representative bodies. The effect will be that you will have the borough counties represented and also urban counties having a population of not less than 20,000. This suggestion seems to me so reasonable and one which, I think, is so much desired by local authorities that I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept it.

§ Sir NORVAL HELME
I wish to support the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton. The principle upon which this Amendment is intended to act is to secure the services of those with local knowledge and definite acquaintance with the residents in the various districts who know the men and the interests that are to be provided for under this Bill. I speak for the non- 292 county boroughs of which the borough of Lancaster is an example—within my own Constituency. Lancaster is an ancient corporation which goes back for 700 years, and we have all the arrangements which qualify us to deal with purely local matters. Therefore I ask the Government to recognise the local interest taken in this matter, and the advantage that would come by the responsibility being cast upon those who really are local men and able to deal and obtain information in detail from those amongst whom they live, so that we may do our part to bring about an equitable decision in all cases, some of which would present great difficulty in the absence of local knowledge.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment. I should like to explain that non-county boroughs will strongly resent the provision in Sub-section (3) of Clause 2, which provides that the county council will have the responsibility of creating a scheme for the non-county boroughs. The non-county boroughs strongly resent that, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the suggestion made in the Report of the Committee, which reported that every county and every borough and urban district council should frame a scheme. I represent a borough that has a population of over 70,000 people, and they now appoint their own old ago pensions committee, but they resent very strongly that the county council should draft a scheme for them. Therefore J hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment, which would mean that every county and every borough which is not a county borough, and every district council, will have power to create their own scheme under this Bill.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I am afraid we cannot accept this Amendment.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
Then we shall have to divide the Committee, because it is really serious.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
We cannot accept it now, because I am afraid it would seriously affect the areas provided for in the Bill. The proposal in the Amendment will require a very great deal of looking into to see how far the areas in the Bill will be altered. Our idea was to get as large an area as possible from which the people might be drawn. They would form themselves into a committee, which would be divided into subdivisions where you would have sub- 293 committees possessing a good deal of local knowledge and experience. It is not very easy to decide at once on this Amendment, but if I were to accept it I am sure it would entail a great deal of alteration of the areas which have been shown under this Bill. I will, however, promise to consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to whether he could accept any reconstitution of these areas on the Report stage, and I will lay before my right hon. Friend the views which have been expressed. I will myself approach this question in order to see whether it is possible for us to alter the areas. If the hon. Member does not press this Amendment now he may get a different answer after it has been thoroughly well considered.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
After what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman, of course I shall not press my Amendment.

§ Sir NORVAL HELME
Will the right hon. Gentleman confer with those who are interested in this matter?

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
There will be ample time between now and the Report stage for a conference to take place, and my right hon. Friend, I am sure, will be very glad to receive representations. All we want is to get the best scheme we can.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Mr. ANEURIN WILLIAMS
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), paragraph (c), to leave out the words "at least two women among," and to insert instead thereof the words "as many women as will constitute at least one-fourth of the total number of."
I do not think this Amendment is on the same footing as that dealing with the statutory Committee. This is a local matter, and therefore it is more desirable to put in some words of definite guidance in dealing with these local committees without dealing with the central statutory Committee. You will have local authorities and all sorts of views, and you might have these words interpreted in the narrowest possible sense. I know it is the strong wish of the organised women of this country that there should be a definite statement that at least a very substantial part of these committees should consist of women, and that the proportion should be at least one-fourth of the total. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept this Amendment.

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§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. We propose to accept the words "some women," and I think that will meet all the necessities of the case. I am sure those who constitute the local committees I will be ready to avail themselves of any local knowledge and skill that can be obtained in carrying out this work.

§ Mr. A. WILLIAMS
It is quite clear that women are far more interested in this work than the men, and I do not think it is right to leave this question to be determined possibly by the narrow prejudice of a particular council in a particular locality. It is quite a different thing when you are dealing with a council. I know that it would be a very great disadvantage to the organised women of this country if something a great deal more definite than "some women" should be put in this Clause.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)
I hope that the hon. Member will not insist unless he desires to prevent the Amendment of the hon. Member for St. Pancras [to leave out the word "two" and to insert instead thereof the word "some"], because the Question, as put from the Chair, was that the words "at least" stand part of the Clause. If the Amendment follows the usual course, the words "at least" will stand part, and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will therefore be unable to carry out the suggestion which he made.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I was going to appeal to my hon. Friend to withdraw the Amendment. When you fix the number of women—take the Education Committee—there is sometimes very great difficulty in getting suitable women, and committees, to my knowledge, have had to go about hunting for an appropriate woman to sit upon the committee and to devote her time to the work. There are many cases where the number suggested has not been made up, and they have had to work the scheme with fewer women. I would suggest, therefore, to my hon. Friend that he should leave it to the discretion of the committee, because I am quite certain that if you put in the words "some women" the committee will select women to sit upon the committees.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. Dickinson: In paragraph (c) to leave out the word "two" and insert the word "some."

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§ Mr. DICKINSON
I think my Amendment would be better if I moved it simply to make the words read "for the inclusion of women among the members of the local committee."

§ Question, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

§ Word "some" there inserted.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
We do not want the word "some" now.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
It is done now.

§ Mr. HODGE
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph (c), after the word "women," to insert the words "and two men representative of working-class industrial organisations."
I do not think that I need take up the time of the Committee in seeking to press this Amendment. I feel sure that my right hon. Friend will accept it.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider the effect of his Amendment. He is, as I know, an adherent of the old age pension committee in reference to this Bill, and he is probably looking at it from that point of view, but let him look at the committee to be set up. It may be appointed locally, and it may consist of quite a large number of people. If he allows the Amendment to be carried, there will be only two labour representatives, whereas in ordinary circumstances, the local councils being constructed as they are, a great many more labour men may be on the committee.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
May I offer the same advice to the hon. Member? Both of us have the same view, but the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) has had the word "two" cut out, and the Bill will indicate that more than two women should be on the committee. If, therefore, the hon. Member puts into the Bill the words "two men representative of working-class industrial organisations" it would be rather an indication that two would be satisfactory. I think, from his own point of view, it would be best for him to leave those words out.

§ Mr. GOLDSTONE
It would be perfectly satisfactory to us if similar words were applied here as have been accepted in the case of the hon. Member for St. Pancras, and it seems to me that as the Government are so much enamoured of the 296 words which they have accepted with regard to women they can have no possible objection to accepting words which will give a similar representation to working class industrial organisations I would like to have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he will accept a modified Amendment, giving the same concession in the case of working men as he has been so pleased to give in the case of women.

§ Mr. HOHLER
I really do not think that this Amendment is required. Women are specially mentioned, because, broadly speaking, they are not represented on councils, but I do not know that there need be any anxiety with regard to the representation of labour.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I do not want to commit myself to any form of words, but I can assure the hon. Member that I will bring up some words which will ensure that there will be an indication in the Bill itself that it is expected that every scheme framed by a local committee shall include representatives of industrial organisations.

§ Mr. HODGE
I accept the explanation, and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Sir CHARLES NICHOLSON
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), at the end, to add the words "(d) for the inclusion of adequate representation of the local branch of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association."
There is no doubt that this body is thoroughly well acquainted with the work which has got to be done. The Government has already recognised their knowledge and the experience which they have gained as valuable, because they have allowed two representatives of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association to be placed on the statutory Committee. If the presence of those members is valuable on the statutory Committee it is equally valuable, if not more so, upon the local committees. I move the Amendment in order to ensure that there shall be some members of that association present on the local committees.

§ Sir RYLAND ADKINS
I quite agree with my hon. Friend that there should be adequate representation of local branches of this association in all cases where the association is doing considerable work. 297 But it is obviously part of the scheme of the Bill to encourage district working, and we might have some districts where branches of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association scarcely exist. We have been placed in great difficulty, in towns of considerable size, where there are scarcely any persons in any way connected with this association, and if you put this in as an absolute direction it may cause further difficulty. There is no desire on the part of local authorities to exclude the association where it has been doing a considerable part of the work. I hope the Government will be able to express sympathy with the general view, without of necessity accepting these words, which, in my opinion, are too crude.

§ Colonel YATE
I trust some mention of this association will be made here. I do not agree with what has just been said by the hon. Member who last spoke. This society has been doing splendid work for months past, and to it are due the thanks of the pensioners for whose benefit the labour has been extended. The association has a real right to be represented on these local committees, and it ought not to have to ask to be appointed as a matter of favour. I trust that that right will be recognised by the right hon. Gentleman, and that he will see his way to make some provision to secure it. Any interruption of the labours of its branches would be the greatest calamity to the women and children who are mostly concerned in the passing of this Bill.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I should naturally like to accept the Amendment because I have a great affection for the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. But I am bound to point out that that association has not got branches everywhere, and if we put these words in we should have to limit their operation to places where effective branches exist. Then the question would be opened up who is to decide whether a branch is effective. I would ask hon. Members to look at the general composition of this body. We put in a mandatory Sub-clause that women shall be included. We have another mandatory Clause that representatives of the working classes shall be included. But we have put in nothing mandatory in favour of any particular association or society. Perhaps it will suffice for me to say that I believe no local body will be properly constituted unless it contains a great many members of any effective branch of the 298 Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, and where a branch is working effectively and harmoniously there need be no alarm that they will not be invited to help in that particular locality. I think we had better leave it at that. With all the good will in the world for this association I do not think I can accept this Amendment.

§ Sir J. SPEAR
Would it not meet the case if the word "some" were introduced? It is very important that this association should be represented. They have a right to claim representation, and the introduction of the word "some" would, I think, secure that right.

§ Sir C. NICHOLSON
I regret the decision the Government have come to, but, as I do not want to press my Amendment to a Division, I will ask leave to withdraw it.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
The next four Amendments standing on the Paper in my name are consequential on a matter which is to be considered on the Report stage, and I do not, therefore, propose to move them.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "and in the case of the county of London, the City of London, and each Metropolitan borough."
I hope my right hon. Friend will consider whether the Government cannot meet me in this matter. The effect of the words which I propose to delete is to make it obligatory on the County Council of London, when it draws up its scheme, to declare that the divisions for the purposes of local administration shall be coterminous with the divisions of the City of London and of the Metropolitan boroughs. There is no reason why that obligation should be put on the county council. I can show, I think, there is every reason why we should leave the option perfectly open to the county council as to the areas it shall adopt. That, at any rate, was the course adopted under the Old Age Pensions Act. My right hon. Friend has a very great knowledge of that Act. He had a great deal to do with the scheme, and he has had much to do with the administration of the Act in London. I respect his opinion, therefore, very highly. But I think that on this occasion I can lay before the Committee reasons why it is not advisable to make this new departure.
299 What happened under the Old Age Pensions Act? The county council had power to make its own scheme, and the scheme made was not in accordance with the divisions of London and the Metropolitan boroughs. There are twenty-nine Metropolitan boroughs, but it was found desirable to divide London into thirteen districts for the purposes of the Old Age Pensions Act. The reasons were obvious. The boroughs differed very largely from one another, both in size and population—they ranged from 500,000 inhabitants to less than 20,000—and they differed also in rateable value. For these reasons the council came to the conclusion that it would be better to divide London into thirteen areas and to so arrange them that the wealthier and the poorer communities were able to co-operate with each other. The policy proposed under this Bill has never received the approval of the London County Council, and the one committee which has, I believe, been consulted with regard to it—a committee, the majority of the members of which are Moderates—has decided unanimously against this provision of the Bill. Although the county council has not had an opportunity of considering this point, representatives of it waited on me yesterday and stated their views, and I am pretty certain that the county council will strongly resent the option of arranging the best district suitable for the purposes of this Bill being taken away from it. I hope we shall not institute, for reasons which I must say I entirely fail to appreciate, the new system of administration contemplated by this Clause. I am not going at this moment to discuss the Old Age Pensions Act, but I do suggest that the considerations which applied to the institution of districts in London for the purposes of that Act apply absolutely equally to the questions which will come before the county council when it has to deal with this scheme. I therefore hope the Government will agree to omit these words.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
It is quite true, as my right hon. Friend says, that I was very largely responsible for the organisation of the old age pensions committee for London, but I must say that we came to a decision which was very unpopular at the time with the Metropolitan boroughs when we grouped those boroughs as the authority for old age pensions. Why did we do it? Because we had to put members of the London County Council on each of 300 those sub-committees. One of the main reasons for that was that it would have been impossible to find members of the London County Council to go on twenty-nine different sub-committees, neither was it necessary to have, as we thought, an old age pensions committee in every single borough. I cannot say that that was a popular decision. I believe it has worked well, but I do not think it is popular to this very day. I am quite sure from what I know of the Metropolitan boroughs that it would be most unpopular to group them for this particular purpose. The part of London to which I belong—Chelsea, Fulham and Hammersmith—are grouped together for old age pension purposes, and I believe that works fairly well. But I am quite sure if I were to propose that Chelsea, Fulham and Hammersmith should combine in one committee to carry out all the various duties put upon the members of this committee, I should be proposing something very unpopular, not only with the Metropolitan boroughs but with the people who inhabit those parts.
What happened not only during the Transvaal war, but what has happened even during the months of this War? It has been the habit and custom of the people to look to a particular committee set up and working in their own boroughs, very often working with their headquarters at the town hall, particularly in the poorer districts. The people there have become accustomed to go to the town hall to inquire into the many little grievances they have and the many sorrows they have in connection with these grants, pensions and allowances, and all that kind of thing. People from outside have been imported into a certain borough, and they have a habit of working in certain streets, and giving up the best of their time to this work. We should disturb this work very greatly and be making a mistake to adopt this system. We should find we had done something which was not only unpopular with the borough councils themselves, but very unpopular with the wives and widows of those for whose advantage the statutory Committee is mainly set up. I hope my right hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. I am quite sure that if I were to accept it I should be adopting a very unpopular line, therefore I must adhere to the arrangement within the four corners of this Bill.

§ Mr. TIMOTHY DAVIES
I would say, in support of this proposal, that it does not mean that all the borough council 301 areas should be the areas for the committee, but simply that this matter should be referred to the London County Council, so that they might make the same arrangement as they have done as regards the old age pensions committee or any other arrangement. Possibly there is a good deal to be said for what the right hon. Gentleman stated with regard to the borough councils in respect of working the committees; but there is another side to it. I believe he himself admitted that the old age pensions committee worked remarkably well in particular districts. I believe these committees would work well if the matter is placed in the hands of the London County Council to make their own areas, as was done in the case of the old age pensions committee.

Mr. CHANCELLOR
I should like to back up the remarks of the Mover of this Amendment. The county council has to devise a scheme. They have been doing similar work in connection with old age pensions, which has given satisfaction to everyone. Areas and population are different in character. Take the City of London, for instance. That would be an area where very little of this work would have to be done. The greater part of the population are caretakers, and very few of their people have gone to the War or been killed in the War; whereas in other areas a very large amount of this work will have to be done. I think you might leave a great body like the London County Council to divide up the work for which they are responsible. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will listen to the appeal of my right hon. Friend, because I believe it is the unanimous wish of the London County Council that this discretion should not be taken from them.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I shall not withdraw the Amendment, and I shall ask leave to bring it to a Division. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that I do so because I am asked to do so by the representatives of London. It is perfectly true that this question has always been a question of dispute between the representatives on the county council and the various Metropolitan borough councils, but that is the very reason why I think it is not at all fair that under the conditions in which we are now proceeding, conditions which my right hon. Friend perfectly realises, that we should have these questions which, are of great importance so far 302 as London is concerned, and which are felt very strongly indeed by at any rate one party—and I believe that all parties would be agreed—it is not at all fair, in the circumstances in which Parliament is sitting now, that we should have this matter raised against the opposition of the representative body of London, and not in other parts, because you are giving this option to every other county council. You are not laying them under any obligation at all. It is because my right hon. Friend thinks that it is the best way of doing it that he proposes it now. I submit it is only fair that these questions should be left to the representative body. I shall not withdraw the Amendment, and perhaps before the Report stage the county council may be able to operate upon the mind of my right hon. Friend.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
It would be very curious indeed if an appeal on behalf of London were rejected, inasmuch as both the hon. Members who are sitting here doing their best for this Bill are London Members. I confess that I thought the statement of my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board was convincing as to the necessity of keeping the borough area, particularly inasmuch as we have already determined the constitution of the Committee. So far as I can see there is no reason why the views of those who are deeply interested in the administration of London affairs should not, so far as opportunity offers, be heard. My right hon. Friend and myself are agreed, if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) will let the matter stand as it is, that if there are those who have authority to express their views upon this matter, and desire to do so to us, an opportunity will offer for a fair and reasonable consideration of what is best for London in this case between now and the Report stage. I give my right hon. Friend the assurance that that consideration shall be given.

§ Sir RYLAND ADKINS
I would appeal to my hon. Friend not to go to a Division upon this Amendment, because it is analogous to other points of the discussion, which I understand are to be discussed between now and the Report stage, and upon which I certainly will take pains to confer before the Report stage. I hope we shall not be put to a Division during the Committee stage on the question of county versus borough. We may, perhaps, although I hope not, be driven to some 303 such Division later on, but while there is any chance of agreeing upon this part of the Bill it would be made more difficult by the emotional result of the Division.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I accept my right hon. Friend's assurance, and will not press the Amendment to a Division at present, but I urge that he should give the consideration to the wishes of the London County Council.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I beg to move, after the word "district" ["shall be a separate district"], to insert the words "and in the appointment of every such subcommittee some of the members appointed shall be women."
There are no words in this Sub-section which lay down that women should be on the sub-committees. I think that is a mistake. It is perfectly clear that if there is any portion of the work in which it is most necessary to have women it is on the local sub-committees of the district.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I beg to move, to leave out the words "Such a sub-committee may, but need not, contain any members of the Committee by which it is appointed; and a Committee may delegate to a sub-committee any of its powers and duties under this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "Such a sub-committee must contain some members of the Committee by which it is appointed."
I move this because it seems to me extremely ridiculous that it should be possible to erect a sub-committee which could have all the powers and duties given to it under this Act, and yet that it should not contain a single member of the appointing Committee That is so ridiculous a position that surely my right hon. Friend, if he does not agree to my form of words, will agree to put in some words of his own to ensure that all these sub-committees, at any rate, must include some members of the Committee by which they are appointed.

§ Sir R. ADKINS
I support this, although if the Government have any special reason I might possibly be content to have at least one member of the Committee by which it is appointed. I am speaking only from the point of view of administrative counties. In nearly every Department I can think of now, where we 304 are appointing sub-committees on education, school attendance, and old age pensions, we find it very desirable to have at least one, and generally two, members of the appointing committee on each of its district committees in order to maintain continuity and to have first hand evidence in case any difficulty arises. In many cases you will not want many members of the Committee, but I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, or words to a similar effect, in order just to keep the link between the appointing Committee and the district committee.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I really dare not accept this without giving it a great deal more thought. Take the county of Lancashire, with which the hon. Gentleman is very well acquainted. There I should think the members of the Committee have quite enough work to do without one or other of them attending and serving on every sub-committee which may be appointed. In Lancashire and Yorkshire there are enormous areas and there are a great number of sub-committees, and they must find someone willing to serve on each one of those sub-committees. I believe that if the hon. and learned Gentleman or myself were working on a statutory Committee we should endeavour to put some member on each sub-committee, so as to link it up with the statutory Committee, but I believe neither he nor I would like to be absolutely bound to find someone to work on the sub-committee. I could not accept this, at all events, until the Report stage, and until I have had an opportunity of thoroughly looking into the matter and seeing whether I was providing myself with a working scheme, or merely breaking it down

§ Mr. RAFFAN
I hope the right hon. Gentlemen will very seriously consider this matter, and will be advised by practical experience. I have had very long experience of county councils, and I can assure him that their members will always be very glad to serve on a committee of this character. I happen to be a Lancashire representative, and I should be extremely surprised to find that in any part of the county it was difficult to get a member of the county council to act. Certainly in my Constituency the local members of the county council would be very disappointed if they were not appointed. As the right hon. Gentleman has not considered it, I hope he will give us an assurance that if he finds generally that those 305 engaged in county council work think the Amendment should go in, he will let it go in on the Report stage.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
If hon. Members who are accustomed to work on this class of committee can assure me that this will be a good working scheme, I shall be glad to accept it.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to add the words, "Provided that if the council of any borough, district, or county in which a committee is appointed under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, so decide, that committee shall be the local committee for the purposes of this Act instead of a local committee established in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this Section, but in that case if the committee does not comprise at least three members who are women the council shall add to the committee not less than three additional members who shall be women. The committee shall have for the purposes of this Act the powers contained in the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, in regard to the appointment of and the delegation of powers to sub-committees."
During the course of the discussion certain of my hon. Friends strongly urged that if the right hon. Gentleman could not see his way to accept an Amendment a Division should be taken. I think it is very undesirable to have Divisions on matters of this kind where it is possible to avoid them. This Amendment emanates from the same source as the Amendments which he has already promised to consider and to receive a deputation upon. I suggest that he will be willing to allow this particular suggestion to be considered later, so that those who are interested in it and have given it careful consideration may have an opportunity of expressing their views, and he will possibly be able to satisfy them, and we shall have got thorough unanimity.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I thoroughly understood all this evening that the hon. Member's Amendment would form part of the subject, and a very important part, of the deliberations which were set on foot. The question to which he will have to address himself is how far the old age pensions committees are certain to contain all the elements that ought to find themselves on a really sound working committee which is to carry out all the functions under this Act. That is the question 306 he must be prepared to argue, and we shall be prepared to give that matter very serious consideration.

§ Sir RYLAND ADKINS
There are a number of Members associated with local government who are very much opposed to the old age pensions committees being the local authority under this Act. The Parliamentary Committee of County Councils Association have their meeting to-morrow and we will consider it, and then perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will see me, as well as my hon. Friend, to see if we cannot get a scheme which will satisfy us both.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I shall naturally be very anxious to hear the views of the hon. Gentleman, because they appear to approach very nearly to my own.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the words "except so far as they may be paid by the statutory Committee) shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the local committee," and to insert instead thereof the words "approved by the statutory Committee shall be paid by the statutory Committee."
I think the Committee ought to understand exactly what is in the minds of the Government with regard to the funds to be at the disposal of the local committees. It is said that the Government anticipate that the charitable funds which are to be used by the statutory Committee are to be collected by the local committees. It seems to me to be impossible to contemplate that that will be a useful arrangement. So far as one can foresee, the whole of the expenses for supplementary pensions will have to be borne by whatever funds are at the disposal of the statutory Committee. Whether it is taken from the Prince of Wales' Fund or whether it is taken from Grants by Parliament, or whatever course is adopted, I think it is perfectly clear that the money available for these supplementary pensions will, as a matter of fact, be money which is in the possession of the statutory Committee. Therefore it seems to me that the statutory Committee ought to pay all the expenses. That is the reason why I move this Amendment. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us exactly what it is that he proposes, because if the proposition is that these local committees are to collect their own money and to dispense it as far as they can in their own localities, then 307 I think it is a serious matter that we ought not to assent in this House. Of course if it is merely a question of petty expenses that would be met by my Amendment, which proposes that the expenses of a local committee shall only be expenses approved by the statutory Committee. I cannot understand how the local committees are to collect this money. I should think that it would be the simpler course, and the course which experience has proved to be most successful, if this statutory Committee is the one body which spends money and authorises the spending of money in every part of the Kingdom.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
If this discussion goes on I presume that it will be limited to the specific point of detail in connection with this particular subject, and not range over the general question of finance, which I understand will be discussed oil the next Clause. I am not ruling the Amendment out of order.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
The whole question as to where the money is to come from is undoubtedly outside this Amendment. The subject of the Amendment is whether the local committees shall have the spending of their own money or whether the statutory Committee should do it.

§ 9.0 P.M.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
I believe there is great substance in this Amendment, because my experience of provincial towns is that the whole of the money that is collected and handed over in supplementary grants to soldiers and sailors is sent to London. Therefore there will be no money with which these local committees can pay the expenses. The statutory Committee is going to focus the whole of these grants of moneys within their control and they must send down to the local committees money to cover the local expenses, otherwise there will be no money to pay the local expenses. I think that we are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is expected that these local committees are going to collect money for this fund, because if they do collect money for it, as they have been doing, through the local mayors, the whole of the money in most towns is sent direct to the Prince of Wales's Fund. I cannot see, therefore, how any money collected will be left to pay the expenses.

§ Mr. GRETTON
(indistinctly heard): I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not 308 accept this Amendment without some consideration. I have had some experience in administering the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. If the matter is left to the local committees I think it will be found that there will be much greater tendency to increase expenses and less check on administration than there would be if they had to draw upon funds collected locally to meet their expenses. Of course, there is strong argument on the other side that all the money should not go into the central fund, but that a part of it should be kept locally and that expenses should be charged locally in the interests of economy.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I quite agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Gretton). It is quite true that some of these local committees, even in quite recent times, have spent money somewhat undesirably in official expenses. I have known cases where the official expenses have run up into a very high figure indeed. This Subsection, as I read it, will protect the statutory Committee. It provides that— Any expenses of a local committee (except so far as they may be paid by the statutory Committee) shall be paid out of the funds at the disposal of the local committee. There will be a check by the statutory Committee on the local expenses of the local committees. If the local committees want to run their machines on a very extravagant scale, and if they want to do things which are not usually done by other committees, then they must do it out of funds which they themselves collect. They will have power to collect money, and if they want to go into very high official expenses, high salaries, high rent for offices, etc., expenses not approved by the statutory Committee, that money will have to be found by the local committees, and not by the statutory Committee. That is how I read the Sub-section.

§ Mr. HOHLER
I agree that there is great substance in this Amendment. In my view it is quite insufficient to read Clause 2 alone, you must read with it Clause 4 Under Clause 4 you ascertain what are the functions of the local committee. As I read Clauses 2 and 4, and the Sub-sections, I think it is quite clear that the local committees, out of the funds at their disposal, can make grants and can make supplementary grants. I find that in so far as they can solicit funds they can spend them as they like, and in so far 309 as the statutory Committee is concerned, all that they require to do is to collect information for the statutory Committee and to distribute any supplementary grants made by the statutory Committee, the distribution of which has been delegated to the local committees. Apart from that, they can collect funds and pay exactly what they like. Any funds they collect are free in their hands, and there is nothing which requires or enables the statutory Committee to give them any money at all. The statutory Committee, if they think fit, can use the local committees as a distributing medium under Clause 4 of the Bill, Sub-clause (c), which enables the local committees: To distribute any supplementary grants made by the statutory Committee, the distribution of which has been delegated to the local committee. Apart from that, I do not see that there is any control over these local committees. In other words, whether it is from the Prince of Wales's Fund or not, if they have not paid it over, they can distribute the money just as they like and as they please without any control at all.

§ Mr. RAFFAN
May I refer to the encouragement which may be given to local committees to raise funds for the purpose of making, themselves, additions to the allowance made by the Central Committee. If that occurs you will have different scales in different parts of the country and there will be the gravest dissatisfaction. May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that all that he seeks to safeguard is safeguarded by the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman. Under that Amendment nothing is paid to the local committee except under such scale as the statutory Committee may determine. If he sets the local committees to work collecting funds I am quite sure that they will not be content to raise the mere amount that is necessary. They will go on to raise considerable funds which will not be sent to headquarters. The result will be that you will have varying scales and a great amount of dissatisfaction. I hope that if the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to accept the Amendment to-day, he will give the matter further consideration, so that that which, in my view, is a very great evil indeed, may be avoided.

§ Mr. DICKINSON
I do not want to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division, but I would ask the right hon. 310 Gentleman to give the matter further consideration between now and the Report stage.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I will give a little more attention to that point in the interval.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.