§ (1) The munitions tribunal shall be a person appointed for the purpose by the Minister of Munitions sitting with two or some other even number of assessors, one half being chosen by the Minister of Munitions from a panel constituted by the Minister of Munitions of persons representing employers and the other half being so chosen from a panel constituted by the Minister of Munitions of persons representing workmen.
§ The Admiralty shall be substituted for the Minister of Munitions under this provision as the authority to appoint and choose members of a munitions tribunal to deal with offences by persons employed in any docks declared to be controlled establishments by the Admiralty.
§ (2) The Minister of Munitions or the Admiralty shall constitute munitions tribunals as and when occasion requires.
§ (3) Rules may be made for regulating the procedure of the munition tribunals so far as relates to their jurisdiction with respect to offences under this Act by a Secretary of State, and so far as relates to any other matters which are referred to them under this Act by the Minister of Munitions, and rules made by the Secretary of State under this provision may apply, with the necessary modifications, any of the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts which it appears expedient to apply.
§ In the application of this provision to Scotland the Secretary for Scotland shall be substituted by the Secretary of State, and any provisions relating to the sheriff sitting summarily for the Summary Jurisdiction Acts, and in the application of this provision to Ireland the Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for the Secretary of State.
2083§ (4) A person employed or workman shall not be imprisoned in respect of the non-payment of a fine imposed by a munitions tribunal, but that tribunal may, without prejudice to any other available means of recovery, make an order requiring such deductions to be made on account of the fine from wages due to the person employed or workman as the tribunal think fit, and requiring the person by whom the wages are paid to account for any sums deducted in accordance with the order.
Mr. T. WILSONI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "person" ["a person appointed"], to insert the words, "who is a civilian other than a permanent Civil servant."
We believe that permanent Civil servants ought to be kept out of these Courts. The Bill will be administered a great deal better if that is done, and those affected will have more confidence in the administration of the Act.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. It is quite an unnecessary reflection upon a noble body and an aspersion upon Government servants. I do not know that we have any Civil servants that wish to sit on these tribunals.
§ Mr. HODGEWould the right hon. Gentleman accept the words "who is a civilian." We do not want a naval or a military officer presiding over these tribunals; otherwise the fat will be in the fire.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI am told that the legal definition of a "civilian" is a gentleman who is conversant with Roman Law.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEIs that what my hon. Friend means? I assure him we have no intention of doing what he suggests.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEOr putting in force martial law. We are just as anxious as he is that these Courts should not be of the character that he apprehends.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELIs it intended that local magistrates shall be disqualified from being upon these tribunals?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGENo. [A RIGHT HON. GENTLEMAN: "Yes."]
§ Mr. J. SAMUELWell, one Minister says "Yes," and another says "No."
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI am the Minister in charge, and I say "No."
Mr. T. WILSONI moved what I did with the object of making the Act work smoothly, for the workmen in the shipbuilding yards and engineering shops have a great suspicion of anyone who has been a public servant—in the Army or Navy. In regard to the suggestion of aspersions, the Act itself is an aspersion upon a great many more men than these.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), at end, to insert the words, "And the Minister of Munitions may constitute two classes of munitions tribunals, the first class having jurisdiction to deal with all offences under this Act, and the second class having jurisdiction to deal with any contravention or infraction of the by-laws or regulations made in controlled establishments, or any undertaking given to workmen under Part II. of this Act."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
§ Amendment made; In Sub-section (3) leave out the words "the procedure of" ["regulating the procedure of"].—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
§ Further Amendments made: In Sub-sections (3), after the word "tribunals" ["munitions tribunals so far as relates"], insert the words "of either class of tribunals."
§ At end of Sub-section (3) insert the words "and any provision so applied shall apply to the munitions tribunals accordingly."
§ In Sub-section (4), after the word "tribunal" ["a munitions tribunal, but that"], to insert the words "for an offence within the jurisdiction of the tribunal of the second class."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
§ Mr. G. TERRELLI beg to move, after the word "tribunal" ["a munitions tribunal, but that"] to insert the words "for a first offence."
The Sub-section provides that a person shall not be imprisoned in respect of the non-payment of a line imposed by a Munitions Tribunal. My Amendment is that that provision shall apply to a first offence. A workman may deliberately set 2085 himself against the Act, and I think in the case of repeated offences the tribunal should have the power of imprisonment in default of being able to recover the fine. I hope the power will not be required, but if may be required.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThere is a good deal in what the hon. Gentleman says, but there has been a substantial agreement established with the leaders of the various trades concerned, and I do not think I should have succeeded in obtaining that measure of agreement unless I had agreed to the insertion of this provision against imprisonment. I think we have gone a long way, and it is very much better, from every point of view, that it should be on an agreed principle. For that reason I hope the hon. Member will not press his Amendment.
§ Mr. G. TERRELLI beg to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Further Amendment made: In Subsection (4) leave out the words "wages due to" ["on account of the fine from wages due to the person "], and insert instead thereof the words "the wages of."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
§ Mr. JOWETTI beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "fit" ["as the tribunal think fit"], to insert the words "providing that no larger sum than five shillings may be deducted from any one week's wages."
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI should think a maximum of 5s. would be quite ineffective where a man was earning between £2, £3, or £4 a week. It might be considered only necessary to impose a penalty of 1s. for an offence. I think my hon. Friend must realise that that must be the case.
§ Mr. R. MACDONALDThe intention of this Amendment is not necessarily to impose a fine of 5s.
§ Mr. KINGI should like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the Amendment which I have on the Paper which I think really meets the case even better than the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Jowett). I suggest in my Amendment that the deduction from wages should not be at a higher rate than three-pence in the shilling. If a man was earning £4 a week he might very well pay £1 fine.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI think this is a matter which the Munitions Tribunal could also determine. If it is put to them that the man is only earning 25s. or 30s. a week the tribunal would take that into account, but to impose a fine of 5s. on a man who is earning £4 or £5 as a maximum would not make very much impression. I think it is better that each case should be dealt with on its merits.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. WATTHow many different types of tribunals are going to be set up throughout the country and are they all going to be paid?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI think there will be about sixty Courts of the first instance, and about nine or ten of the other.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThere will be the President of the Court, a nominee of the workers and a nominee of the employer.
§ Question put, and agreed to.