HC Deb 01 July 1915 vol 72 cc2125-8

Any trustees who are holders of consolidated two-and-a-half per cent. annuities, two-and-three-quarters per cent. annuities, or two-and-a-half per cent. annuities, or three-and-a-half per cent. war stock or war bonds issued under the War Loan Act, 1914 (in this Act referred to as convertible securities), may borrow as provided by this Act such sums as may be requisite for the purpose of subscribing for such an amount of the loan issued under the War Loan Act, 1915, as will enable them to obtain securities issued under that Act in exchange for the convertible securities held by them; and any money so borrowed shall be applied in subscriptions to the loan under the War Loan Act, 1915.

Any such sums may be borrowed on the security of the convertible securities held by the trustees, and the securities obtained by them by means of subscription to the loan under the War Loan Act, 1915.

Sir WILLIAM BYLES

I hope the Government is not going to press through this important Bill at this hour of the night, because I think to do so would not be treating the Committee fairly. I do not know whether I am in order unless I move to report Progress, but, if I am, I should like to call to the recollection of hon. Members what took place two days ago. Here was a very important Bill brought in by the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealing with trust funds, which I think the Committee will agree is a most delicate matter. I had always been taught to regard trust funds as a sort of Ark of the Covenant, but here we have a Bill giving powers to trustees which I can only say appears to me to be of a very far-reaching character. The point I wish to make in regard to the Bill is this. No sooner was the Bill explained than the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he wanted to get it through all its stages, then and there, without the House of Commons having ever seen the Bill at all.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. McKenna)

It was in print.

Sir W. BYLES

It was in print, but it was not allowed to be issued to hon. Members. That is my complaint.

Mr. McKENNA

My hon. Friend is mistaken. It was.

Sir W. BYLES

Excuse me, I happened to overhear a conversation between two attendants in the Vote Office. One of them said to the other, "On no account must that Bill be allowed to go out until it has been debated." That showed that it was the obvious intention of the Government not to allow us even to read the Bill through.

Mr. McKENNA

My hon. Friend is quite mistaken.

Sir W. BYLES

At any rate the Bill had not been circulated, and we had no opportunity of getting copies of it. We could not get it by asking at the Vote Office. For the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get the Bill through all its stages was felt by hon. Members who were present at the time to be an improper thing. The moment the Bill was explained by the right hon. Gentleman, up jumped one lawyer after another in all parts of the House offering protests and expressing doubts.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to interrupt my hon. Friend because I have such a high admiration for him, but I should like to ask you what are we discussing. Is there a Clause before the Committee. If the first Clause is before the Committee I should like to know if it is in order to discuss extraneous matters, because I am very often called to order if I diverge in the slightest degree, and the same rule ought to apply to every Member of the House.

Sir W. BYLES

I want no favour from the Chair. May I be allowed to report Progress?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

No, I cannot accept the Motion, and I hope the hon. Member will not press the point, because I shall have to refuse, as the Standing Order was suspended for the specific purpose of the Bill.

Sir W. BYLES

May I not be permitted to point out that this is a breach—

The CHAIRMAN

I have allowed the hon. Member very considerable latitude already and I do not think he is requiting my indulgence by persisting in his remarks.

Sir W. BYLES

I can assure you, Sir, that I will endeavour to keep myself strictly within the bounds of order.

Mr. CAVE

I beg to move in the first paragraph, after the word "for" ["in exchange for"] to insert the words, "all or any of." This is the first of three Amendments I have put down to this Clause, and I think no objection will be taken to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The effect of the Amendment I have just moved is to allow trustees to convert part of their securities instead of converting all of them.

Mr. McKENNA

I agree to this Amendment.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Mr. CAVE

I beg to move after the word "them" ["the convertible securities held by them"] to insert the words, "and for paying the expense of such borrowing."

Mr. HOGGE

What does that mean?

Mr. CAVE

It means that trustees may borrow money not only for the purpose of subscribing to the War Loan, but for paving the cost of borrowing money as well.

Mr. McKENNA

I accept the Amendment.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Mr. CAVE

I beg to move after "1915" ["shall be applied in subscriptions to the loan under the War Loan Act, 1915"] to insert the words, "and in payment of such expenses." This Amendment is purely consequential.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Mr. D. MASON

I would like to put on record a protest against this Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is well aware that we had a discussion in the House when he made his preliminary observations in regard to it, and my hon. Friend opposite (Sir William Byles) was quite right when he said that the Bill was not then in our possession, because the First and Second Readings were taken simultaneously. I think, after seeing the Bill and recognising what it does, that one does feel that this House—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That is not relevant to the first Clause.

Question put, and agreed to.