§ 46. Mr. BOOTHasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the time hitherto allowed for debate on questions relating to Mr. Montague Meyer's commission for timber buying has proved insufficient for a full answer from the Department concerned; and can he see his way to give the House a full opportunity of discussing the matters connected with Mr. Meyer's transactions?
§ The PRIME MINISTERMy hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office dealt very fully with this matter on Thursday last. A further opportunity for discussion, if desired, will arise both on the Vote of Credit and on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
§ Mr. BOOTHIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that several direct questions put by hon. Members at Question time have not been answered, and also that several other questions put in the course of Debate have not been answered, because the Debate came to an abrupt termination owing to the time having expired? So far, we have not been able to test the statements made by the Financial Secretary to the War Office.
§ The PRIME MINISTERFull opportunity was given on both occasions.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEMay I ask whether it will be possible to discuss the subject on the Vote of Credit, and to move specific reductions?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat I cannot say without notice.
§ 51. Mr. GINNELLasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state, as the result of the inquiries made before the appointment of Mr. Meyer as timber buyer on commission for the Government, the prevalent price per standard immediately before the declaration of war; the prices asked by British merchants after the declaration of war; the prices now current in the trade for the same class of timber; the prices at which the War Office has obtained timber through Mr. Meyer; the quantity and total price of the timber so obtained; and the amount of Mr. Meyer's commission according to the arrangement with him?
§ Mr. BECK (Lord of the Treasury)The hon. Member will realise that the information asked for is outside the limits of an 262 answer to an oral question, having regard to the number of qualities and scantlings of timber involved. The First Commissioner is, however, prepared to circulate with the Votes in due course such information as can be readily amassed with regard to certain typical scantlings. The amount of Mr. Meyer's commission was 2½ per cent. on the amount of timber required and ordered through him.
§ Mr. WATTHas the hon. Gentleman no information as to the quantity of timber that was required by his Department?
§ Mr. BECKI should like to have notice of such a question. It is not a question of what was required by my Department, as my hon. Friend calls it, but of what was required by the War Office.
§ 56. Mr. WILLIAM YOUNGasked the under Secretary of State for War the date of Mr. Montague Meyer s appointment as timber-buying agent to the War Office; who was the person or firm who introduced Mr. Meyer to the Office of Works; and whether Mr. Meyer was among those timber merchants who quoted, in response to the inquiries stated to have been sent out by the Office of Works, for the timber requirements of the War Office?
§ Mr. BECKMr. Meyer was appointed on the 19th of October. He was not introduced to the Office of Works by anybody, but became known to them in the course of inquiries sent out by them to him, in common with others, and was known to have supplied timber to the War Office. Mr. Meyer did not quote actual figures, although he was prepared to do so: but suggested that, in view of the state of the market, the proper method was to buy direct abroad in bulk, which suggestion was adopted.
§ Mr. YOUNGWhy are these questions not being replied to by a representative of the War Office, which is the Department mainly and primarily responsible for this appointment?
§ Mr. BECKThe reason is that this transaction was carried out by the Office of Works as the agent of the War Office, and the Office of Works has the information which my hon. Friend requires.
§ Mr. BUTCHERWas not Mr. Meyer appointed by the War Office?
§ Mr. BOOTHIs it the fact that the Office of Works voluntarily offered to the War Office to execute the purchase of 263 timber, on the ground that they were the office best suited, and that the War Office found that they could not perform the duty except by the engagement of Mr. Meyer, a perfect stranger to them?
§ Mr. BECKIt is very inconvenient to answer questions in this way. I understand the facts are that the War Office went to the Office of Works for advice as to obtaining a very large quantity of timber, the Office of Works being the Department which deals with such matters. The Office of Works then advised the War Office, and finding that the War Office was, in the time of terrible stress through which it went, tremendously overworked, the Office of Works undertook to procure any wood wanted by the War Office for them. That is the whole transaction.
§ Mr. WATTWas the Office of Works informed of the quantity of timber required by the War Office and the value of it?
§ 57. Mr. YOUNGasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Mr. Montague Meyer was paid commission on the value of his own stock as taken over by the Office of Works for the requirements of the War Office; who fixed the value of Mr. Meyer's stock; whether the value of his stock was included in the figure of £600,000 already given to the House of Commons; and what was the total value of the stock of timber as taken over by the Government from Mr. Meyer?
§ Mr. BECKMr. Meyer was only paid the agreed commission on the invoice price, and not on the value of stock taken over from him. The payment was agreed by the Office of Works after inspection by their officers of the original contract documents in relation to the stock. The stock is included in the £600,000. The total value of it was £11,360.
Sir HENRY DALZIELWhen attention was called to the matter in the House, bad Mr. Meyer rendered a commission account?
§ Mr. BECKThere is no foundation for that at all. I understand that on this particular transaction, as compared with the price he would have obtained in the open market, Mr. Meyer lost some £2,000.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEHas any maximum ever been fixed for the total amount of commission payable?
§ Sir GEORGE YOUNGERWill the hon. Gentleman explain why there should be any difference between the invoice price and the value of the timber?
§ Mr. BECKYes, Sir. The point is this: Mr. Meyer had some timber in stock. If the hon. Baronet will look up the facts, he will find that timber appreciated some 20 per cent. between the time Mr. Meyer bought this wood and the time he supplied it to the Office of Works. He would naturally, in the ordinary course of events, have got the benefit of that 20 per cent. increase, but owing to the excellent arrangement of the Office of Works he did not get it. He got only the 2½ per cent.
§ Mr. YOUNGI beg to give notice that I shall again call attention to this matter, either on the adjournment to-night or at the earliest possible opportunity.
Sir HENRY DALZIELasked the hon. Member for Saffron Walden, as representing the Office of Works, (1) whether he will state what is the total value of timber purchased up to date by Mr. Montague Meyer on behalf of the Government; (2) whether he still adheres to his statement that the Office of Works sent out 500 communications to timber firms asking them to quote before the appointment of Mr. Meyer; (3) if so, can he explain why a large number of leading firms in the trade were excluded; (4) does he confirm the statement of the Under-Secretary that Mr. Meyer at no time had the use of a room at the Office of Works; and (5) whether there is any objection to Members of the House inspecting the contract made with Mr. Meyer?
§ Mr. BECK(1) The total value is approximately £600,000; (2) the exact number of communications cannot be stated, but inquiries which I have made show that reference as to stocks and prices was made by letter, telephone and telegram to over 200 different firms ascertained, among other sources, from the directory published by the Timber Trades Journal, and there are on record prices and particulars of well over 1,000 parcels of timber of various qualities and scantlings; (3) I have no information confirming the statement that a large number 265 of leading firms were excluded—the facts above stated indicate how far-reaching the inquiry was; (4) yes; (5) the contract with Mr. Meyer took the form of a letter of appointment, a copy of which I shall be happy to show to any Member desiring to see it.
Sir H. DALZIELIn reference to the hon. Gentleman's answer "Yes," I would like to know, Does the hon. Gentleman confirm the statement of the Under-Secretary that at no time had Mr. Meyer the use of a room in the Office of Works? Does the hon. Gentleman say that the published statement of leading firms that they were interviewed by Mr. Meyer in the Office of Works is untrue?
§ Mr. BECKIf I may say so, that is quite beside the point. I can only assure my right hon. Friend that I am obliged to give the answer "Yes" on that point.
Sir H. DALZIELCan the hon. Gentleman report any progress in the direction of modification of this contract since the question was discussed in the House?
§ Mr. BECKNo. The negotiations are proceeding, and so far the arrangement is 2½ per cent. up to £600,000, 2 per cent. between £600,000 and £1,000,000, and 1½ per cent. over £1,000,000.
§ Mr. BUTCHERCan the arrangement be revised at any moment?