HC Deb 14 September 1914 vol 66 cc836-46

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Mr. HOARE

I have given the President of the Local Government Board notice that I desire to raise certain questions connected with the prevention and relief of the distress which is due to the War. I am quite aware that a great mass of work has been thrown upon the shoulders of the Local Government Board owing to the sudden emergency, and the criticisms I shall make shall be made in no captious spirit. They are the result of the experience that I have gained during the last three or four weeks on a Local Distress Committee. I think that my experience has not been peculiar, and that the difficulties which we have felt have been felt in a great many other localities also. It is now five weeks since the Local Distress Committees were formed. I know that is not a very long time in view of the difficulty of some of the problems which are involved. At the same time, I think the time has now come for the President of the Local Government Board to give us some light as to certain difficulties which we have experienced.

Quite rightly, the relief and prevention of distress is divided into two problems—the problem connected with the families of the soldiers and sailors and the problem connected with civilian distress. As to the soldiers' and sailors' families, that is a comparatively simple problem. Scales of pay can be formed and definite measures can be adopted for dealing with cases which have a certain similarity. Let me only say in passing that it would be a relief to some of us if the President of the Local Government Board could tell us that the first charge upon the National Relief Fund would be soldiers' and sailors' families and dependants.

Mr. JONATHAN SAMUEL

The National Fund, you mean.

Mr. HOARE

I said the National Fund. Let me pass to certain difficulties that arise with reference to the relief and the prevent of distress amongst the civil population. I think the time has come for the President of the Local Government Board to issue a Blue Book or a White Paper stating on what terms it is proposed to distribute this relief. What are the principles which are to be adopted in allocating the money between one area and another? Further, I would like to make the suggestion that from time to time he should publish in the Press the amount of money which has already been distributed and the objects for which it has been devoted. That is the principle, I would remind him, which has been adopted by such bodies as the Road Board, and it would be of very great interest to all of us if we knew how much money was being distributed and on what lines the distribution was taking place. I would like further to ask the right hon. Gentleman to state either now or in the immediate future, upon what basis the Grants are being made to local authorities and public bodies for carrying out works which would employ large quantities of labour. I know some details have been given with reference to the provision of houses, but I gather it is the intention—at any rate I hope it is the intention—of the Government to stimulate public bodies to undertake useful works of other kinds beside housing. It certainly would be a help if the various Departments under whose supervision such works would naturally come would at once issue circulars to the local authorities stating what will be the conditions of these various Grants.

As far as I know—to take one single example—the Board of Education has made no statement as to whether it is going to give encouragement to the building of educational buildings in various localities. That is only one instance. Other Departments might very well stimulate local authorities to the undertaking of greater works. It will help local distress committees if we could at once know to what works of public utility, apart from the Development Commissioners and the Road Board—of which we have already heard—Grants will be given. In this connection I desire to bring to the notice of the President of the Local Government Board the fact that local distress committees are already faced with a cer- tain number of urgent emergency cases. I fully realise that it would be a very grave mistake to undertake extensive works of relief in any locality until full information is in the hands of the Local Government Board, and the administrators of the National Relief Fund. There are certain urgent cases in my own locality—I am glad to say not many. But I believe that in every locality there are some cases which do demand treatment at once, and which cannot wait until the whole number of statistics—which no doubt will eventually be gathered—are brought together. In the White Paper which the Local Government Board have published there are two lists of questions which the local distress committees have to fill up before they can obtain relief. I would point out to the Local Government Board that those questions cannot be answered until very full and long inquiries have been everywhere undertaken. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to be able to tell us that even before those fuller inquiries are completed some provision will be made for these emergency cases. I do not desire to tie him down to any definite details. All I want to know is that the local distress committees will not be kept waiting indefinitely whilst these statistics are being collected.

6.0 P.M.

There is another question which I wish to bring to his notice—the question of the relief of unemployed women. At the present time, so far as one can judge, there is more unemployment—at any rate in London—due to the War amongst women than amongst men. My distress committee have already had brought to their notice certain very hard cases of unemployed women. I am aware that a Central Women's Committee has been formed be advise the Cabinet Committee with reference to the employment and relief of women. They have already published in the Press statements of the lines on which they are going to work. They state that they are going to subsidise factories and workrooms and that they are going to start workrooms of their own. I am told that they are going to restrict their procedure for the employment of women principally to these two means. I hope that is not the case. I have in Chelsea certain women who could very well be employed in their own homes, and who could not so well be employed, for various reasons, in workshops or centralised factories. I hope that in the scheme which is to be adopted for the employment of women these women will not be left out, and that it will be possible to employ them in their own homes—at Army clothing or whatever the work may be—just as it is intended to employ them in workrooms and factories. I do not mean by that that they should be paid inadequate wages. They could as well be paid the full rate of wages in their homes as in the workshops and factories.

There is another point which strikes some of us, and that is that the central committees, upon whom the responsibility for this very important work is going to fall, are not strong enough. I have been very carefully through the names of the four or five committees, details of which are set out in the Government White Paper, and certainly it is my opinion, and I know from what other peoples tell me that it is their opinion as well, that some of these committees might very well be strengthened. I do not want to go into personal matters, and I have no objection to anybody who is on any of these committees. At the same time, I ask the President of the Local Government Board, from time to time, to strengthen some of these committees, and to make them even more representative than they are. To give a single example, I think the London Committee might very well have upon it some representative of business and commerce. I think it might also have upon it representatives of some big philanthropic or religious organisation. The work which these committees are called upon to perform is very responsible and important, and I think that the time has come for strengthening them in some such way as I have suggested. And lastly, I am somewhat afraid from the number of Local Government Board circulars which have already been issued that there is danger of this work being over-centralised. I am quite aware that some kind of centralisation is necessary; at the same time there is danger of its being carried to extremes.

Let me take two examples. First of all, these local distress committees are not even to be trusted to collect the statistics of their own boroughs. In the circular which has been issued, it is stated that the Local Government Board have selected from their Intelligence Department certain officers for the collection of local information and statistics. I should have thought that until it was shown that the localities cannot collect this information, that it was unnecessary to impose upon every locality a special officer of the Local Government Board to collect statistics and facts. I am also afraid that the appointment of Local Government Board inspectors to supervise the work of the local committees, will, if care is not taken, take much of the interest of their work from the local committees, and will make them feel that the work is being done by the Local Government Board officials, and that there is no need or no use for their efforts. In the circular No. 12 which the Local Government Board has issued, it is stated that the position of these inspectors will be first of all to advise a policy, and, secondly, to attend the meetings of the committee. I should have thought it might have been left to the committees to decide whether they wished to have these inspectors present or not. They are to assist the committees in certain work and to report to the Government Committee generally as to the measures adopted throughout the country for the prevention and relief of distress. I should have thought it was not necessary that every application that the local distress committees make for Grants should have to be sent in in duplicate to the Local Government Board inspectors. These are the points which I wish to bring to the notice of the Local Government Board. I do hope particularly that he will be able to say something about the emergency cases, and that he will be able to reassure the local committees that if they manage their own affairs well no uniform procedure will be imposed upon them by the Local Government Board, and that their efforts will not be everywhere controlled by Local Government Board inspectors.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

The hon. Member has asked a number of questions raising points of great interest and importance, and I shall endeavour, in the brief time which the rules of the House allow, to give specific and definite replies. In the first place, with respect to the allocation of the Grants from the National Relief Fund, on the one hand to the dependants of soldiers and sailors, and on the other hand, to persons belonging to the civil population suffering from distress, I would remind the hon. Member that it has already been publicly announced that there have been arrangements to prevent overlapping and confusion between the Committee of the National Relief Fund and the Government Committee for the prevention and relief of distress of which I have the honour to be Chairman. The first Committee—the Fund Committee—assumes entire responsibility for the distribution of so much of the National Relief Fund as is devoted to the relief of the dependants of soldiers and sailors. I have no concern with that whatever.

Mr. HAMILTON

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the Fund that is?

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I will come to that. The Committee of the Fund arrange matters with the War Office and the Admiralty and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association and the Royal Patriotic Fund. On the other hand the Committee have been good enough to say they will accept any recommendations of the Government Committee as to the distribution of the Grant in relief of civil distress. They have, in effect, given the control and allocation of these Grants to the Government Committee and reserve to themselves merely the right of review. The Fund, as again publicly announced, is intended for the relief for both classes of the population—both the dependants of soldiers and sailors and members of the civil population in distress. No proportion has been arrived at or laid down as between one claim and the other. The Government Committee and the Committee of the Fund will have to consider the claims on the basis of need, and if it seems probable that this Fund will be exhausted by the demands made upon it, then arrangements must be made for an increase of its amount from one quarter or another, or from some other sources of revenue. It has now reached £2,500,000, and if to that is added the most munificent gift of flour from the Government of Canada, the value of which is about £750,000, which will be used for the relief of distress, and the other gifts which have come from the Dominions and Colonies, the figure is brought considerably above £3,000,000. However, it is not likely to be in excess of the needs, but rather the reverse. The hon. Member suggested it was time to issue a White Paper showing what were the conditions on which the Grants would be made to local distress committees. The White Paper already issued, and from which the hon. Member quoted, does lay down a series of suggestions—not rules or conditions, but suggestions to local committees, and the form of applications for Grants for local committees puts a series of questions, which they are requested to answer, and upon their answer the opinion of the Government Committee is formed. I do not think it would be advisable, at all events at this stage, to lay down rigid rules or regulations or conditions for the local committees. We are as fully alive as the hon. Member to the necessity of allowing very considerable latitude to the local committees, and not endeavouring to impose cast-iron rules, and I think it would be an error, certainly at the present time, to define too closely the precise grounds and conditions upon which Grants would be allocated to particular districts.

Mr. BRIDGEMAN

Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to building Grants?

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

No; only to Grants of money for the relief of distress. The hon. Gentleman opposite suggested that we should publish, from time to time a list of the Grants made to particular towns and counties. That is a suggestion which certainly shall receive consideration, but I would point out to the hon. Member that its adoption would have this danger: If we were to publish in the Press, week by week, lists of Grants made to particular places, we would be giving a very powerful stimulus to the demand for Grants from other places, and there would be strong pressure from the towns which were not included, and which were perhaps not in urgent need of Grants. Nevertheless, there would be considerable pressure put upon local committees, and you would find agitation in such places, stimulated and fostered by those published lists, and you would find certain individuals in certain towns, who would say: "Here is the neighbouring town of so and so, which got a grant last week of £500, and we have asked for nothing. We ought to have as much as the other places considering that we send equal sums with them to the fund." All these considerations would arise, and I should be very chary of inviting unnecessary applications by the publication of these Grants. The hon. Member next asked for the assistance of what works Grants would be made in the way of capital. So far as the works are such as a local authority would undertake in the ordinary way, such as municipal buildings, school buildings, drainage works or road works, the laying out of parks and so forth, which would in the ordinary course be undertaken and which might be expedited, they ought to look for their loans to the ordinary supplies of capital available to local authorities. No announcement has up to the present been made with respect to this matter, because the Treasury were unable to lay down rules as to the rate of interest to be charged, but within the last few days the Treasury have arrived at a decision, and they have, in effect, placed the National credit at the disposal of local authorities, and where there is unemployment which might be relieved by undertaking such municipal work, the Treasury will be prepared to provide money on the same terms as the Treasury can borrow, with the addition of a small sum for the cost of management. We shall shortly be able to announce the terms upon which the Public Loans Commissioners can lend money.

While local authorities should rapidly prepare schemes which may be put into operation when distress arises, and so give employment where it is lacking, we are not anxious that these schemes should be put into operation where trade is brisk and employment good. The national resources in the way of capital are not inexhaustible, and we have to consider the condition of the country, and what it is likely to be after the War, when thousands of soldiers return and will require employment. It would be a mistake, therefore, to use up all our resources of capital upon ordinary works in places where the need is not very great. Therefore, we are not urging local authorities to expend money, where there is already a considerable amount of employment, upon works which may later be needed. Nevertheless, it is essential that schemes should be prepared everywhere, for they take time to elaborate. The hon. Member asked me a question with respect to urgent cases. There may be a number of very urgent cases which need relief, and while there may not be general distress there may be sporadic distress requiring small Grants. We are now recommending to the Committee of the National Relief Fund the making of comparatively small Grants for dealing with these very cases. I sanctioned a considerable number a few days ago, and tomorrow a further list will come before the Allocation Committee.

With respect to the employment of women I will communicate the hon. Member's suggestion to the committee dealing with that matter and point out to them that he desires that home workers should be employed as well as workers in factories and workshops I am inclined to think that they have already made some arrangement of the kind in London. The hon. Member also urges that the committees need strengthening, but I am afraid I cannot agree with him, and I think the London Committee is a very strong one. If one philanthropic society was represented on the committee a great number of others would feel aggrieved. The local authorities are asked to appoint their own officers to supply us with statistics. We have to check them because the officer appointed might take a particularly gloomy view of the conditions of employment in the locality which was anxious to secure a large Grant. We must check the local reports by the reports of our own officers, and that is the reason why inspectors have been appointed to supervise the work of the local committees. If no inspectors had been appointed the Government would have been greatly blamed, and it would have been said, "You are allowing these committees to spend these vast sums of money at their own sweet will with no one to check them." We trust that by the arrangements we have made we shall avoid the confusion, overlapping, and waste which have so frequently characterised the expenditure of National Relief Funds on previous occasions.

It being half-an-hour after the conclusion of Government business, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July.

Adjourned at Twenty minutes after Six o'clock till to-morrow (Tuesday) at a Quarter before Three o'clock.