CHARITIES (EMERGENCY) BILL. (Hansard, 10 September 1914)

§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL
When this measure was introduced several hon. Members asked to be furnished with a list of charities which were to be affected. I have been in further consultation with the Charity Commissioners upon the subject. They have informed me that there are in this country probably over 50,000 charities, a number of which—how many I cannot say—are probably derelict, the reason in most cases being that the conditions which were embodied in the original trust cannot now be fulfilled owing to circumstances having changed with the lapse of time, and that the funds, often very small, are not now being applied to any purpose at all. They are accumulating in many cases. When these charities come to the notice of the Charity Commissioners they propose new schemes. It always takes a con- 688 siderable time to make new schemes. The suggestion was that, in the interval, the incomes from these charities, where the charities can be ascertained, should be devoted to the Prince of Wales' Fund. That seemed to me to be a very good proposal. They say now, however, that they cannot state how many of these charities are concerned, or where they are situated, because it is only more or less by something in the nature of a public advertisement that they get into communication with the trustees to ascertain which of these charities should be dealt with under this Bill. I have suggested to the Charity Commissioners that, in my view, it would meet the desire of the House of Commons if, instead of passing the Bill first and ascertaining the charities afterwards, they were to ascertain the charities first by means of some public communication, such as they thought of making if the Bill passed, and that then, when we saw precisely what was the scope of the operation concerned, we should then proceed with the Bill. The Charity Commissioners have readily acceded to that suggestion, and I propose, therefore, not now to proceed with this Bill. The Charity Commissioners will make their inquiries, and when the House meets again—this is not, of course, an urgent matter—I hope that they will be in a position to furnish us with more complete information, when no doubt the House of Commons will be ready to enact the legislation that may be properly required.

§ Lord HUGH CECIL
I was very glad to hear the statement of the President of the Local Government Board. I might call attention to a rather strange thing in the Bill. The opening of Clause 1 says: In the case of any charity not being a charity for solely educational purposes. If the charities which it is contemplated to deal with are really derelict, there is no use in saying that charities solely for educational purposes should be omitted. If the reason given for this Bill is that the money cannot be used for any other purpose, and that therefore it should be given to the Prince of Wales' Fund, why should we have any exception in favour of educational charities? Ill-natured people may have their suspicions aroused by a Clause 689 like that. If the Bill were proceeded with I should not be prepared to admit that educational charities are the only ones which should be omitted. Either the Charity Commissioners intend to lay hands on money which is not theirs, and give it to this charity, or there is no meaning in excluding educational charities. If they want to exclude educational charities there is no reason why they should not exclude all charities.

§ Mr. KING
I expect that the reason why educational charities are excluded is because they are under the Board of Education and not under the Charity Commissioners. That compels me to ask whether a similar Bill is in contemplation for educational charities. The point is a very important one, because at the present time there are many educational charities which are inapplicable owing to the legislation of 1902. A few years ago there was a Departmental Committee of the Board of Education which recommended legislation to deal with these charities, which are now free to be used for educational purposes. That legislation has never been brought about, and at the present time there are charities amounting to something like £50,000 a year under the Board of Education, many of which are being accumulated. I think that we ought to know from the Treasury Bench whether any legislation in reference to these charities is also contemplated.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has taken the course which he has taken. I agree with him that there is no real emergency about this Bill, and that, therefore, we ought to proceed carefully with this. I would point out a little error into which I think he has fallen. He stated that the object of this Bill was to dispose, for the time being, of certain incomes from charities. If he looks at the Bill he will see that it includes the accumulation; and, further, it says any income which cannot usefully be applied. That is a very vague phrase. It goes very far beyond derelict charities. If passed in its present form the Bill would give the Charity Commissioners and trustees power to use an income which in their opinion could not usefully be applied to the charity 690 and the accumulations thereof. That is going a great deal too far. As the right hon. Gentleman proposes to postpone proceeding with the Bill, perhaps he will think over the point which I have raised, and consider whether or not it cannot be remedied.

§ Mr. DUKE
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether it is consistent with the public interest at the present time to discharge an obligation which falls upon the country now by reason of our existing circumstances—by spreading a wide net and drawing in money from sources which were never intended to be applied to our present necessities.

§ Mr. PETO
I would like to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that these local charities, which are said to be in many cases derelict, have one common feature, that they were intended, for the most part, for the relief of local distress. Therefore, instead of putting in the words "Prince of Wales' National Relief Fund," I think you would be more likely to get a ready response in regard to these local charities if you worded the Bill so that it would provide for the relief of local distress under the Prince of Wales' National Relief Fund. If the Charity Commissioners are going to make use of those charities they should make it clear that they will be used for the relief of local distress in accordance with their original object. I agree with the observation which has fallen from other hon. Members, that we ought to be very careful, in carrying out legislation of this kind, to see that, so far as possible, it complies with the intention of those who founded the charities and made the original benefaction.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
I approve of adjourning the consideration of this Bill, and I hope that we have heard the last of it to-day. There is a certain amount of humour in some of these emergency Bills, which cast an extraordinary sidelight on certain Government offices. Here we have the Charity Commissioners telling us that there are some 50,000 charities, a large number of which—they cannot say how many—are derelict, and of which the income has been accumulating. They cannot give the names of those charities nor 691 where they are. It has been said that a large number of people are interested in them, and they want to avoid their getting into the clutches of the Charity Commissioners. It looks suspiciously like as if the Commissioners desired to get hold of these charities, of which they do not know the names nor the trusts, and therefore are anxious to have this Bill passed. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University asked why education charities were to be excluded. The reason is that if they were brought in they would not come within the domain of the Charity Commissioners at all, and they would come under the Board of Education, which apparently has not joined in this proposal under the Bill. I think the Charity Commissioners should show a greater knowledge of the 50,000 charities, and that we should know a little more as to why these funds are to be taken. I do not think that advantage should be taken of this emergency to bring forward such an extraordinary Bill as that which is before us at the present time.

§ Mr. GULLAND
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."