HC Deb 26 November 1914 vol 68 cc1479-82

(1) The Local Government Board for Ireland may by order modify or repeal the provisions of Section nine of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1847 (which prohibits the giving of relief from the poor rates of a union to any person not within the union when so relieved), so far as respects any union specified in the order if, in the opinion of the Board, the modification or repeal is necessary or expedient for any purpose in connection with the present war or for the better administration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Acts, 1838 to 1900, and may by the same or any subsequent order make or provide for such adjustments and apportionments of the property, powers, duties, income, liabilities and expenses of any board of guardians or other local authority affected as appear to the Board to be proper.

(2) An order under this Section may contain such consequential, incidental, and supplemental provisions (including provisions as to the remuneration and superannuation of officers) as the Board deem necessary, and shall have effect as from any date subsequent to the first day of August one thousand nine hundred and fourteen, which may be specified therein for the purpose.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "War," to leave out the words, or for the better administration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Acts, 1838 to 1900, and may by the same or any subsequent Order make or provide for such adjustments and apportionments of the property, powers, duties, income, liabilities and expenses of any board of guardians or other local authority affected as appear to the Board to be proper. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman, the Chief Secretary, is prepared to accept that Amendment.

The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell)

I am extremely anxious to meet the hon. Baronet, because I quite recognise that he is well within his rights that in connection with emergency legislation it should not be used by an anxious Department to avail themselves of doing good by stealth, and blush to find it fame. I am willing to accept the Amendment with the omission of certain words, but I cannot help thinking that the hon. Baronet will see that this is absolutely essential that the Local Government Board should have power to make such adjustments and apportionments of the property, powers, duties, income, liabilities and expenses of any board of guardians or other local authorities affected as appeared to the Board to be proper. What has happened is this: The War Office has already taken some thirty of our workhouses for the purpose of prisoners and for the purpose of troops. I have got powers which justifies the Local Government Board in removing about 150 paupers to some fifty or sixty other workhouses outside their union. I have to get a Bill to indemnify me for what I have done. When the War comes to an end the workhouses will be absolutely empty, and it will be perfectly impossible, and it might be undesirable, that I should go about the country to find these paupers and remove them from the sixty or seventy workhouses to other workhouses. That is eminently undesirable and probably impossible. I have to make adjustments between the guardians of the paupers whom I have removed and which were chargeable to one union and the guardians of the union to which they have been removed and to which they were not chargeable. All I wanted was not to come rushing to this House immediately peace was declared, and perhaps even then all the troops would not be removed for some time, and then I should have some of those workhouses which I do not want to fill up again, and all I want is to get powers to authorise the Local Government Board by Order to make such necessary adjustments as may be required in order to keep the paupers perhaps where they are already, and to use those empty buildings it may be for the purposes of segregation of classes of paupers, or it may be for auxiliary lunatic asylums or the like. See what my position as President of the Local Government Board would be at the moment peace is declared. I have to rush to the House of Commons in order to enable me to carry out things which are absolutely consequential on what I have done.

I agree that the words as drawn naturally excite the financial susceptibilities of the hon. Baronet, to which I in no way demur. In Sub-section (2) there are the words "including provisions as to the remuneration and superannuation of officers." It may be that those words smack somewhat of reform of the Poor Law, which, although a most desirable thing, I quite agree is not a proper thing to introduce in this Bill. I am therefore very willing that that part of the Amendment to exclude those words should be accepted. I do assure the hon. Baronet, and I think he will be so assured by any of the Irish Members, that the other words authorising me to make such Orders as are necessary for the adjustment and alterations which would secure the actual emptying of thirty workhouses are literally consequential upon the powers which I seek to take, and which I have already exercised illegally, to hand over thirty workhouses, and I have already handed over fifteen to the War Office, for the purpose of prisoners and troops. I do assure the hon. Baronet with all consciousness of his alertness to public duties, I am really doing nothing whatever excepting those words as to superannuation but that which is consequential, and I am willing those words should be omitted.

Sir F. BANBURY

I am willing to meet the right hon. Gentleman in every way, but there are also the words "or for the better administration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Acts, 1838 to 1900."

Mr. BIRRELL

If the hon. Baronet likes I will leave out those words.

Sir F. BANBURY

I am anxious to meet the right hon. Gentleman. With those words out it will be necessary to move an Amendment at the end.

The CHAIRMAN

The best course is to withdraw the Amendment before the Committee.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words, "or for the better administration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Acts, 1838 to 1900."—[Sir F. Banbury.]

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, after the word "proper" ["appear to the Board to be proper"], to add the words "for the said purpose."

Mr. BIRRELL

I agree to that.

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "including provisions as to the remuneration and superannuation of officers."—[Mr. Birrell.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has done, although I am not sure that he has not got the better of me. I have tried to fulfil a rather difficult task in a very short time.

Mr. BOOTH

I beg to thank the right hon. Gentleman for agreeing to amend the Clause, otherwise I should have voted with the hon. Baronet.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.