HC Deb 25 November 1914 vol 68 cc1215-7

Where during the continuance of the present War any coupon or other security transferable by delivery is presented for payment to any company, municipal authority, or other body, and the company or body has reason to suspect that it is so presented on behalf or for the benefit of an enemy or that since the said eighteenth day of November it has been held by or for the benefit of an enemy, the company or body may pay the sum due in respect thereof into Court, and such a payment shall for all purposes be a good discharge to the company or body.

Mr. POLLOCK

I beg to move, after the first word "body" ["or other body"] to insert the words "or person."

I wish to elicit an explanation as to the purpose of the Clause. I am not quite certain that I understand it, nor am I quite certain that it is necessary to amend the Clause at all. It contains a beneficial provision which enables a person who has doubt about a security presented for payment to have the privilege of paying the money into Court. My difficulty is in quite understanding how far the Clause is intended to go. If it is intended to apply to coupons or dividends which are declared by a municipal body on the inscribed stock of that municipal body, why do you have in the Clause the words "or other security transferable by delivery"? If you are going to include in the ambit of the Clause negotiable instruments, then why should not persons who may have to pay not also have the privilege which is given to a company, municipal authority, or other body? It will be observed from the Preamble that a distinction is drawn between persons and bodies of persons. You cannot suggest that a person is included in any of the words at present used in the Clause, and so it comes really to this, that if Clause 7 is intended to apply to coupons or dividends, then the words which are at present used are not applicable to that purpose. If, on the other hand, you do intend to include and give the privilege to all persons to whom are presented for payment coupons or negotiable securities, or any security transferable by delivery, there is nothing in the Clause to provide for that. I do not press the matter, I am asking, information. I wish to know the Government's view as to the intention of the Clause. If it is intended to be a wide Clause, I think the word "person" should be inserted.

Sir J. SIMON

The hon. and learned Member presents me with a dilemma consisting of two prongs, and he invites me to impale myself on one prong or the other. I do not think I have any alternative, if I deserve to be impaled, as to the terms of his Amendment. I propose that we should put in the word "person" here, but it will be necessary to do two things which he has not mentioned. The word "or" ["company or body has reason to suspect"] will have to be left out. The word "or" will also have to be left out at the end of the Clause ["to the company or body"].

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. POLLOCK

I beg to move, after the word "body" ["the company or body may pay"], to insert the words "or person."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. RUTHERFORD

I beg to move to leave out the words "into Court," and to insert instead thereof the words "to the Custodian."

In regard to this Amendment it is a singular thing that the Lord Advocate is going to propose two Amendments further down to do for Scotland exactly what I propose to do for England, namely, to allow this money to be handed over to the Custodian. I do not know what the representative of Ireland would have suggested if he had been here, but I call the attention of the Attorney-General to the rather anomalous position set up by the Lord Advocate's Amendment. I suggest to him that we should have uniformity of practice in England, Scotland, and Ireland.

Sir J. SIMON

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will sympathise with me when I say the Clause as it stands is quite right. The only reason the Lord Advocate has for his Amendment is that they have not in Scotland reached the same stage of civilisation as in England. There is no such thing in Scotland as payment into Court.

Mr. RUTHERFORD

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir J. SIMON

I beg to move, after the word "Court," to insert the words "and the same shall, subject to rules of Court, be dealt with according to the orders of the Court."

Mr. CAVE

If the Amendment is carried in this form, the Lord Advocate's Amendment would not fit into the Clause.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: Leave out the word "or" ["company or body"].

After the word "body," insert the words "or person."

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.