§ Any person who holds or manages for or on behalf of an enemy any property, real or personal (including any rights, whether legal or equitable, in or arising out of property, real or personal), shall within one month after the passing of this Act by notice in writing communicate the fact to the Custodian, and shall furnish the Custodian with such particulars in relation thereto as the Custodian may require, and if any person fails to do so he shall, on conviction under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts, be liable to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months, or to both such a fine and imprisonment, and in addition to a further fine not exceeding fifty pounds for every day during which the default continues.
§
Amendment made: After the word "Act" ["after the passing of this Act"], insert the words
or if the property comes into his possession or under his control after the passing of this Act, then within one month after the time when it comes into his possession or under his control."—[The Attorney-General.]
Mr. RUTHERFORDI beg to move, after the word "require" ["as the Custodian may require"], to insert the words
and the secretary of every limited company registered in Great Britain, Ireland, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man, shall within one month after the passing of this Act communicate to the Custodian full particulars of all shares, stock, debentures, debenture stock, or other obligations of or in such company which he has reasonable grounds for believing belong to an enemy or in which an enemy is interested.If the Attorney-General does not desire a Clause of this kind, I will not move it.
§ Sir J. SIMONI shall be much obliged to the hon. Member if he will explain his proposal. We are endeavouring to co-operate in this matter, and I have no doubt that his suggestion is one that needs to be considered.
Mr. RUTHERFORDI will avail myself of the invitation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I think it is very important that the Custodian should get hold of all the particulars that he possibly can 1187 of any property or right of any alien enemy, and this Amendment which I have moved would require the secretary of a limited company registered in the United Kingdom to do something which he has a statutory obligation to do, at all events in a complete form, once a year—namely, to send to the Custodian particulars of the debenture shares and stocks and every kind of obligation of such company which he has reasonable ground to believe belong to an enemy or in which an enemy is interested. Many people, and even the right hon. and learned Gentleman, would be surprised, possibly absolutely astounded, at the result of passing such an Amendment as is here suggested. I have no hesitation in saying that there are shares extending to millions of money that would be disclosed to the Custodian as the result of passing this Amendment. I really think, if we had a Custodian at all, we ought to have the information as to what alien enemies hold in connection with our limited companies. I move my Amendment for the reason I have given, otherwise I do not want to delay the proceedings.
§ Sir J. SIMONI sympathise, if I may say so, entirely with the object which the hon. Member has in view. What he wants, and what we all want I think, is to secure that the provisions of this Bill shall not be mere formal provisions which can be avoided by astute and, it may be, dishonest and malevolent individuals—for there are such in all communities—but practical. That seems to be generally agreed upon, but I say to the hon. Member quite frankly what for the moment strikes me as a difficulty—and I should like to think the matter over—and it is this: We have already made a provision that every limited company shall pay the dividend which, if the War was not going on, would be payable and paid to or on behalf of the enemy to the Custodian. We have imposed a severe penalty on any company—its directors, secretary, or anybody else—who knows that this provision is not complied with if it is not complied. It is quite possible it may not be complied with, and somebody may try to wriggle out of it. But if you assume such a case I find it difficult to understand how, when you say the same thing in another form, you are more likely to get at the truth.
§ Mr. DUKEMay I point out how it is a safeguard? Every British company is 1188 registered, and every person interested can go to Somerset House and see the register over a reasonable period, and what it contains. It may be you cannot find out whether the company failed to pay dividends, but you will find the persons registered and who are entitled to dividends. I venture to suggest this is a valuable ancillary provision.
§ Sir J. SIMONI am much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentlemen. As I said, and said sincerely, if I find the object is good, and am satisfied that it provides that further check, I should be glad to incorporate it in the Bill. I do not know whether the hon. Member who moved the Amendment would let me have an opportunity of consulting the Companies Department of the Board of Trade.
§ Sir J. SIMONI had that in mind, and I say to the hon. Gentleman that I shall be prepared to accept the proposal in principle unless it turns out on examination that it does not assist materially the check which the Clause as it stands would provide. If it does add to the check, it seems to me to be a useful thing, and if so I should like to have it added to the Bill. If the hon. Member will withdraw the Amendment now, I will consult my advisers, and we will decide whether to put it down ourselves on the Report stage or to ask the hon. Gentleman to do so.
§ Mr. HOLTI am very glad my right hon. and learned Friend thinks favourably of this proposal, because every information would not apply in cases where there are no dividends at all. This would cause the full information to be given, and it would not entail much trouble or serious trouble.
§ Mr. J. M. HENDERSONI should like to add a word—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI must point out to the Committte what the effect is if hon. Members speak after an hon. Member asks leave to withdraw an Amendment. If hon. Members address the Committee, after an hon. Member asks leave to withdraw an Amendment he has no power to withdraw it. It has to be negatived, and if negatived it cannot be brought up again.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
1189§ Sir J. HARMOOD-BANNERI beg to move, to add at the end of the Clause, the words
Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply in regard to cases where a controller or inspector has already been appointed in respect of such property and rights.It seems to be rather hard to have this double penalty imposed. If an inspector is appointed, not only would the work be supervised, but the firm would also be liable to this fine for not giving information. If the inspector or controller is there, he will have access to the books and can give the information requisite, and therefore I think it is quite unnecessary to place a penalty of a fine upon the firm in addition to the controller and inspector.
§ Sir J. SIMONI am afraid I do not understand this Amendment. Is there any Sub-section in Clause 3?
§ Sir J. HARMOOD-BANNERThe Amendment should read, "provided this Section shall not apply." You fine a man £100 after putting in an inspector who has full authority to go through the books.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.