HC Deb 24 November 1914 vol 68 cc979-81

(1) The Inland Revenue Act, 1880, shall have effect as though, as the table to be used for determining the original gravity of worts of beer, there were substituted for the table set out in the First Schedule to that Act the revised table an original copy of which, marked Table A, has been signed by the Chairman of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, and deposited in the office of the King's Remembrancer of the Royal Courts of Justice:

Provided that where the original gravity has been ascertained by the officer in accordance with the said revised table under Section 15 of the Inland Revenue Act, 1880, a deduction of three-quarters of a degree shall be allowed from the gravity so ascertained for the purpose of the charge of duty in accordance with Subsection (3) of Section 13 of the Inland Revenue Act, 1880 (which requires the duty to be charged according to the gravity as entered in the book by the brewer, or as ascertained by the officer, whichever is the higher).

(2) Any definite quantity of worts to be distilled for the purpose of ascertaining original gravity under Section 15 of the Inland Revenue Act. 1880, shall, before being distilled, be cleared from sediment by filtration.

(3) Where it is necessary to ascertain the original gravity of beer, whether for the purpose of duty or for any other purpose of the Customs Acts or of the Excise Acts, the original gravity shall be ascertained in the manner prescribed by Section 15 of the Inland Revenue Act, 1880, as amended by this Act.

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Sir G. YOUNGER

This is a very knotty proposal indeed, and I do not understand it. It is altering a system that has been in operation for a very great number of years, owing, I believe, to some scientific flaw in the specification table, with which I need not trouble the House. But there is a very novel and extraordinary Section of this Clause, which says that this particular table has been signed by the chairman of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, and deposited not in the Vote Office, and not attached to the Bill, but deposited in the office of the King's Remembrancer of the Royal Courts of Justice. Who is he? Where does he exist? I understand that, when he was asked to provide a copy of this table, he stated that he had never heard of it. I understand that a small committee of the brewers have agreed with the Excise authorities on this matter. But I do submit that, when there is anything of this kind, it should be put into the Schedule of the Bill, or should be available in the Vote Office, and it ought not to be hidden away, if it exists at all, in some remote office in the City. I do not even know where it exists.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

The hon. Baronet is perfectly right. This is a matter that was discussed between the brewers and the Customs and Excise authorities for a very long period. I believe that it is practically an agreed new Schedule. What was felt was this, that when we put a duty on beer it was of very great importance that the Schedule should be on a much more scientific basis than the present one. It gives nothing to the Exchequer.

Sir G. YOUNGER

Three halfpence a barrel, or twopence.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I am told that it is practically very little. With regard to the second point raised by the hon. Baronet, I understand that the new Schedule is deposited in the Vote Office. It is there now.

Sir G. YOUNGER

I sent actually to this gentleman, and he had not got it.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

It is in accordance with precedent that these Schedules should be deposited with this very important official. It is in accordance with the ancient traditions of this realm, from which I do not like to depart. I have never done so in my life. Therefore it was deposited with this ancient official on this occasion. If this had not been done, we should have had the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) complaining of our innovation. This is not a time for innovation, and therefore I thought that the best plan was to adhere to this very ancient and honoured custom. But the Schedule is now in the Vote Office. The committee of brewers have gone into the matter very fully, and the Schedule is there for anybody who wishes to see it.

Question put, and agreed to.